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  #631  
Old 02-13-2012, 03:53 PM
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troy2000 troy2000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael pierzga View Post
Its issue is real Troy. Review the Jones Act. Type the Act in Google and you will get thousands of law firms offering their services.

An American can seek redress in a foreign court, then return home and seek redress in an American court. Insurance companies know this and demand a higher premium. Right now in the US there is a committee lobbying the government to change this situation. They gave many outragous examples of Jones Act Abuse and lawsuits. An American Seaman climbing out of a Brothel window, breaking his leg and them demanding compensation from the ship owner. The awards are huge.
Here's the applicable section of the Jones Act, which basically just extended the same rights to American merchant sailors that railroad workers have had for years:

Quote:
(a) Application of railway employee statutes; jurisdiction Any seaman who shall suffer personal injury in the course of his employment may, at his election, maintain an action for damages at law, with the right of trial by jury, and in such action all statutes of the United States modifying or extending the common-law right or remedy in cases of personal injury to railway employees shall apply; and in case of the death of any seaman as a result of any such personal injury the personal representative of such seaman may maintain an action for damages at law with the right of trial by jury, and in such action all statutes of the United States conferring or regulating the right of action for death in the case of railway employees shall be applicable. Jurisdiction in such actions shall be under the court of the district in which the defendant employer resides or in which his principal office is located.
I see nothing in that paragraph that extends the jurisdiction of American courts and juries to cover foreign shipping companies or boat owners, operating in foreign waters.... can you tell me how American sailors are suing in foregn courts, then coming home and suing here also?

When you say you 'aren't allowed' to hire Americans unless you add addtional insurance policies, who's stopping you? Your government, your insurance company, your employers, your customers, your wife.... who?

By the way, I seriously doubt there's been any rash of American sailors falling out of brothel windows, then suing their employers....
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  #632  
Old 02-13-2012, 04:09 PM
michael pierzga michael pierzga is offline
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Im not a lawyer !! I only read the insurance premiums and understand that Americans are not covered.

I tried to link you to the Jones Act abuse PDF ,but my internet is so slow that I couldnt load it. The cases reviewed are just like you imagine...HOT COFFEE !!!! An insurers PI payout is something like 4 times greater when dealing with American Seaman

For me Its rather sad because yachts work with young people. A young American walks up to the boat looking for adventure... a clean cut,well spoken, college kid on summer break and I must tell him...So Sorry, but our insurance covergae will not allow you on board and its a big hassle for me to seek an additional policy just so you can do a two week trip to Norway with us..
  #633  
Old 02-13-2012, 04:41 PM
CatBuilder CatBuilder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael pierzga View Post
So Sorry, but our insurance covergae will not allow you on board
Well, at least it is an excuse he is used to hearing!
  #634  
Old 02-13-2012, 04:58 PM
CatBuilder CatBuilder is offline
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Here is why you need to bring a firearm as part of your vessel's equipment to the Caribbean...

"Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer was robbed at by an intruder armed with a machete last week, while vacationing in the Caribbean island of Nevis, where the family own a vacation home, a court spokeswoman said Monday.

His wife and two other guests were in the home at the time, but officials say no one was hurt in the incident."

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/13...ome/?hpt=hp_t3


He got lucky! This stuff happens all the time and has happened frequently to boaters throughout the Caribbean, Central and South America.

This is what firearms on board are for, not for some imaginary Rambo movie scenario with RPGs and AK47's.


And... look at this from the comments below the story:

"My wife and I rented a house in Nevis a year ago for vacation and were robbed at gun point. Luckily all we lost was some cash. It's a beautiful island. But the crime will destroy tourism there."


Now, am I really not supposed to be taking charter guest to the beautiful Caribbean islands? C'mon. That's exactly where people want to go on charters.
  #635  
Old 02-13-2012, 06:58 PM
Bamby Bamby is offline
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I've followed the thread and to this point avoided involvement as much...but I ran into this article and felt it very relevant to both the thread and my personal point of view on the subject.....

On the right side of the bullet
More Americans protect themselves with guns than you think

Every so often, a local news story about a victim of crime goes national. Most recently, it was Sarah McKinley, 18, home alone with her 3-month-old son, a few days after Sarah’s husband had died of lung cancer. Two men apparently looking to steal pain medicine prescribed for the husband broke in. Sarah grabbed a shotgun and a pistol and killed Justin Martin as he forced entry into her home.

Continue and Read the complete article here: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...of-the-bullet/
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  #636  
Old 02-13-2012, 08:41 PM
Dushan Dushan is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lazauskas View Post
I do understand US gun culture.
Simple.
Then why did you say:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lazauskas
Clearly I have to do some study before I can understand your gun culture, so
I'll re-watch Sergio Leone's "Dollars" movies tonight!
  #637  
Old 02-13-2012, 08:54 PM
Petros Petros is offline
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my favorite similar story was a few years ago in Montana.

Three real bad illegal immigrants from south of the US boarder were rampaging in residential neighborhoods. having murdered the occupants of the last house they sacked, they were armed with stolen handguns and than broke down the door of another house where the only person home was a 14 year old girl. She sized up the intruders and ran to her daddy's bedroom closet and pulled out his 12-gauge shot gun. She finished loading it as the first criminal, who followed her up the stairs and down the hall, just made it to the bedroom door. The girl held steady, took aim and dropped him at the bed room door where he stood. He took the blast square in the chest and was killed instantly. The other two who were close behind the first, immediately turned to flee back down the stairs but she followed them out the of the bedroom and took another out at the top of the stairs. And she fished off the last thug before he made it to the front door.

The 14 year old girl just happened to be the state junior champion skeet shooter. These thugs picked the wrong house and got what they deserved, and the girl saved the tax payers and any potential future victims a lot of trouble.

So, the best fire arm for self defense in close quarters is a shot gun.
  #638  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:00 PM
CatBuilder CatBuilder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
So, the best fire arm for self defense in close quarters is a shot gun.
I would agree. Also, in a boat, quarters are much closer than they are in a house, which is why I use this 12 ga pump action shotgun:



The shortened barrel allows you to quickly bring it around from one target to the next in very small areas. It holds 6 rounds and you can get them off pretty quickly with the pump action. Perfect for intruders on a boat. I kind of picked up on it by looking at what the police and military use in close quarters. These are weapons of choice for them (though maybe not the brand).

The benefits are:

*Easy to swing in a boat
*6 shell 12 ga magazine
*Doesn't rust up (special coating and seals in a bag)
*Not like a rifle or other high velocity projectile - unlikely to hit other boats when you are using it inside your own boat
*Very likely to kill on any direct hit
*Many types of ammunition available
*Reasonable cost
  #639  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:53 PM
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Leo Lazauskas Leo Lazauskas is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dushan View Post
Then why did you say:
I was edumacated by the astute debate.
  #640  
Old 02-13-2012, 11:24 PM
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viking north viking north is online now
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Very few will face up to a scatter gun as they know it's equivalent to 20 men shooting in their direction at once. They also know it's one of the few firearms where even a short distance of separation (running away from) can decide the difference between death or a few pellets in the south end running north. Excellent defence weapon. Also an excellent hunting weapon, shot my first moose (800lb. cow) with a 12 ga. rifled slug from a 36in. barrel single shot Cooey goose gun. Before 12ga. slugs were availble we removed the shot from a shell and replaced it with a lead ball from smelt/caplin casting nets. A 410 is nothing to underestimate either-- I recall the old boys would use a 44-40 (I think that was the caliber) shell before those slugs became available. Many a moose was poached with 410's during patridge (grouse) season.
  #641  
Old 02-13-2012, 11:28 PM
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troy2000 troy2000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatBuilder View Post
I would agree. Also, in a boat, quarters are much closer than they are in a house, which is why I use this 12 ga pump action shotgun:


The shortened barrel allows you to quickly bring it around from one target to the next in very small areas. It holds 6 rounds and you can get them off pretty quickly with the pump action. Perfect for intruders on a boat. I kind of picked up on it by looking at what the police and military use in close quarters. These are weapons of choice for them (though maybe not the brand).

The benefits are:

*Easy to swing in a boat
*6 shell 12 ga magazine
*Doesn't rust up (special coating and seals in a bag)
*Not like a rifle or other high velocity projectile - unlikely to hit other boats when you are using it inside your own boat
*Very likely to kill on any direct hit
*Many types of ammunition available
*Reasonable cost
For home defense, I also believe in shotguns. If they're loaded with bird shot, they won't go through your walls and kill your kid or the neighbor's dog.

Some people don't think bird shot is heavy-duty enough to do the job. But I doubt many intruders are going to keep coming after they get hit with an ounce or more of little lead BB's.

My home defense gun is an old double-barreled Boito with two triggers, so I can fire both barrels at once if I'm that scared.

One advantage of side-by-side doubles is that you can keep them unloaded if you have kids around, because they're so easy to drop a pair of shells into -- assuming you've practiced until you can almost do it in your sleep. Which you really should do, if you keep one near your bed.

The Boito is cut down until the barrel and overall length are each 1/4" longer than the legal minimum, so I can swing it in close quarters. I took a cue from my brother Robert, who once dealt with a smart-ass cop who measured his shotgun, then glared at him and asked, "what's the extra 1/4" for?"

And Robert replied, "that's in case one of you sons of biscuits has a rubber tape measure." Tact was never his strong point.....
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  #642  
Old 02-13-2012, 11:49 PM
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Yobarnacle Yobarnacle is offline
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And Robert replied, "that's in case one of you sons of biscuits has a rubber tape measure." Tact was never his strong point.....


Perfect response!
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  #643  
Old 02-13-2012, 11:55 PM
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Yobarnacle Yobarnacle is offline
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I prefer 20 gauge with 410 adapters. A 20 gauge slug has the same knock down power as a 45-70 cartridge. And its bigger, .615 cal.
The .410 is same as 44 magnum. Lotsa folks don't know, but a .44 magnum is fired from a .41 cal barrel.
I like the .410 adapter for up close birds. Doesn't shred em so bad.
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  #644  
Old 02-14-2012, 12:02 AM
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Yobarnacle Yobarnacle is offline
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I like brass shot shells for handloads. 20 gauge is all I need, but a 10 gauge double would interest me. Brass shot shells could be made from cut down 50 cal BMG brass.
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  #645  
Old 02-14-2012, 01:58 AM
pdwiley pdwiley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatBuilder View Post
Here is why you need to bring a firearm as part of your vessel's equipment to the Caribbean...

"Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer was robbed at by an intruder armed with a machete last week, while vacationing in the Caribbean island of Nevis, where the family own a vacation home, a court spokeswoman said Monday.

His wife and two other guests were in the home at the time, but officials say no one was hurt in the incident."

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/13...ome/?hpt=hp_t3


He got lucky! This stuff happens all the time and has happened frequently to boaters throughout the Caribbean, Central and South America.

This is what firearms on board are for, not for some imaginary Rambo movie scenario with RPGs and AK47's.


And... look at this from the comments below the story:

"My wife and I rented a house in Nevis a year ago for vacation and were robbed at gun point. Luckily all we lost was some cash. It's a beautiful island. But the crime will destroy tourism there."


Now, am I really not supposed to be taking charter guest to the beautiful Caribbean islands? C'mon. That's exactly where people want to go on charters.
I'm just dipping into this thread occasionally because, basically, I don't really give a damn.

2 points.

First, the Somalis operating in the IO *are* equipped with AK47's and RPG's. So I guess you're not going to the IO, fine, that cuts down on the armament needed on your boat. However, don't give me crap about Rambo scenarios when what I say is what's happening in the IO right now, it just shows me you're in denial or have a parochial mindset/don't follow the news. I'm not going past Cocos-Keeling myself, these days.

Second, you might think that you need to have arms aboard your vessel but basically, the officials in the countries where you need the guns DO NOT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT YOUR OPINION. You are a rich Westerner with an expensive boat swanning about their country while they suffer from an inflated sense of entitlement coupled with an inability to manage an economy. Nor, frankly do the other 1st World countries where such arms are *not* needed in their territorial waters care about you, so your chances of getting any IMO/SOLAS rules changed to allow such arms to be carried is zero. It is not going to happen. Period.

Conclusion is, you are pissing in the wind and you are left with 4 alternatives.

1. Go armed, don't declare them, take your chances on Customs inspections and your strategy if you ever have to use them. What do you plan to do if you shoot someone, leave the country immediately without clearing out or dropping off charterers? Shoot someone with an undeclared firearm and you *will* go to jail. You do realise that undeclared firearms can land you in a world of pain if discovered? Illegal possession is still a hanging offence in Singapore, I believe, and in quite a few places it's jail plus confiscation of the vessel. Even undeclared ammunition can get you into deep crap.

2. Go armed, declare them on entry, have the Customs people take them off of you until you clear out. At least you can be armed in international waters.

3. Don't carry arms and avoid places where you might need them. If this cuts into your chartering opportunities, that's your problem, the countries concerned are not going to give a damn as you're bringing little money to them anyway.

4. Don't carry arms and go wherever you want, taking whatever other precautions you can to avoid trouble.

That example you give above is not at all on point, anyway. They were robbed in their home ashore, not on a boat. All the guns in the world aboard your boat are going to do you no good if you're robbed at knifepoint or gunpoint ashore.

You have not thought this beyond the "I want, therefore I must have" point. You are not going to get the legal authority to carry & potentially use firearms in foreign territorial waters no matter what you think or desire, so you'd better start work on Plan B. Or stay inside USA territorial waters, where you *can* carry arms aboard.

I'm not doubting you about parts of the Caribbean being dangerous. So is a good chunk of the IO off of Africa and the southern Philippine archipelago. Sensible people factor this in and go somewhere else. You want to go into places that you, yourself, categorise as dangerous and shoot your way out of trouble if it happens. I don't think I'm the one with Rambo fantasies.

On that note I'll leave you to it. Good luck & don't come to Australia with firearms without declaring them. The penalties are severe.

PDW
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