New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

[DriesLaas]

Congrats Dunnage,

Your boat looks excellent!

It must be great feeling to sail her after all the work that went in?

 

[Dunnage]

Yes... it is great to have her in the water. I expect that I will have a lot of fun in the sailing. But I have to admit that the building was also a lot of fun. I think I will be missing that, now that the boat is (mostly) finished. Thanks, all, for the nice things said.

 

[Segler]

The new and improved BLUE HERON

Re-configured, re-built, re-rigged and ready to race.

Allright, maybe another shakedown cruise first.

 

[sharpii2]

Re-configured, re-built, re-rigged and ready to race.

Allright, maybe another shakedown cruise first.

Excellent build!

A fine introduction for the class.

 

[Segler]

Thank you, sharpii2. Too bad we don't have more people building. On the bright side, there are two of us in these parts with essentially completed builds, now in the tweaking stages, Dunnages NIAD and the BLUE HERON. Match racing.

It would be great if we could find a LASER to join us to provide an absolute performance standard.

 

[sharpii2]

Thank you, sharpii2. Too bad we don't have more people building. On the bright side, there are two of us in these parts with essentially completed builds, now in the tweaking stages, Dunnages NIAD and the BLUE HERON. Match racing.

It would be great if we could find a LASER to join us to provide an absolute performance standard.

I think the class will build up with time, but probably a lot slower than the pdracer class did.

These are much more complicated boats than simple pdracers, and, unlike the pdracer, there is no standard hull shape to start from.

No matter.

Once these two boats start being seen by other sailors, inquiries are likely soon to follow.

Both of you being generous with plans may enable knock offs or near knock offs of the two existing boats to be built by craftsmen/women who are not versed in design.

Then, sooner or later, someone is going to come along who thinks he/she can design a better boat.

Then the race is on.

 

[macbeath]

Thank you, sharpii2. Too bad we don't have more people building. On the bright side, there are two of us in these parts with essentially completed builds, now in the tweaking stages, Dunnages NIAD and the BLUE HERON. Match racing.

It would be great if we could find a LASER to join us to provide an absolute performance standard.

Well, you might find a club that uses 420s to teach, they would be more like the boats that have been built. Or you could join informal races, like the Duck Dodge on Lake Union or the Dinghy Dock Pub race they have at Nanaimo. That way you can each find some competition before you even meet each other, and tweek the designs, maybe get some publicity for the class.

 

[Dunnage]

Sailmaking Question

All...

I have noticed that on some sails the selvedges of the sailcloth run perpindicular to the luff, but on most sails the selvedges run perpindicular to the leach. (There are also sails with much more complicated designs for the piecing of the sail... but those are outside my current 'design envelope'.)

Can someone please tell me, and the rest of us too, the advantages and disadvantages of the two layouts; luff perpindicular vs leach perpindicular?

I have tested my Kenmore / White Rotary home sewing machine and found it capable of sewing through four layers of 4 oz. sailcloth. It will probably do six layers, but not as driven by the motor; I would have to turn the drive/hand wheel by hand (the motor lacks enough power). Is four layers enough for the corner reinforcements?

Thanks
Dunnage

 

[SukiSolo]

Generally the cloth should be orentated so the strongest least stretch is along the leech. Basically your aiming to get minimum stretch and shape retention. This is for most rigs, however you can also deliberately use the bias in the cloth to let the wind stretch the cloth and open the leech - older Finn and OK rigs used this type of design. You will note that modern Finn rigs don't as they are Mylar (calendered Polyester sheet and laminated around an oreintated fibre strand core) as opposed to polyester sail cloth.

If you look carefully at modern OK rigs, they use significant inhaul to move the draft position of the sail camber as their unstayed carbon masts bend a fair bit.

The luff curve is the critical part but the broadseam shaping is important too even though it is relatively small per panel on your size sail. On really quick racing sails a mm and a half stretch along the leech is enough to lose performance..... That's on a mylar so it is permanent. I had one mylar that stretched quite a bit without tearing until it was borderline for measurement!.

 

[macbeath]

how is that a change in the rules? all along it was material costs only, and the method of construction should be suitable for a typical home shop. so injection molded carbon graphite fittings would not qualify, but hand laid up parts would be.

do not count shipping costs, this was discussed. it would put people in remote areas at a disadvantage since they would have to purchase all supplies mail order. it is just nominal retail price of the materials only. As long as you can find a source of materials that is available for anyone to buy in small qualities, that is good enough. Realize it is an honor thing (at least to start).

See post 1077. Most of the builders have assumed that the cost of having a sail built for you counts. Have you priced a new suit of sails for a Snipe, for example? How is it an inexpensive boat if you end up paying $1,200 for sails for your $600 boat?

As it happens, I have an entire rig and sails from my old Snipe, but if I were to use them on a "$600" boat, would that be playing the game?

 

[Petros]

the rules were always about material costs, not labor to make it. implied in the rules was you could pay someone else to build the boat (or sails), as long as the material costs stayed within the budget.

 

[Segler]

the rules were always about material costs, not labor to make it. implied in the rules was you could pay someone else to build the boat (or sails), as long as the material costs stayed within the budget.

You are essentially voiding your original rules, as per this quote from page 34:

"B. Construction method is wide open, but should be suitable for building in a home shop without extensive tooling or costly machine tools."

But, according to your latest "thinking", you could just load up your truck with a bunch of stuff, take it to a place and say, make me a boat, cost is no object.

Lame!

 

[macbeath]

You are essentially voiding your original rules, as per this quote from page 34:

"B. Construction method is wide open, but should be suitable for building in a home shop without extensive tooling or costly machine tools."

But, according to your latest "thinking", you could just load up your truck with a bunch of stuff, take it to a place and say, make me a boat, cost is no object.

Lame!

So, the best strategy would be to find an old wooden International 14, calculate the cost of the lumber and Dacron, and bring it to the race course.

 

[Petros]

there is no requirement that it be racer built, I even specifically stated builders could team up with racing crews. how is this any different?

The idea is that the designs have to be suitable for building in a typical home shop, not that they are required to be built in a home shop.

Is a sewing machine too advanced for a home builder? I would think not, you can buy used industrial sewing machines for about the cost of a good table saw.

Where is this a change in the rules? where in the rules does it say you must count the cost of labor if you do not do the build itself? Did I miss something? Or are you assuming something that is not there?

I should think that one would choose to build boats that are not too sensitive to workmanship. If so, than it would not really be suited to home construction.

 

[macbeath]

there is no requirement that it be racer built, I even specifically stated builders could team up with racing crews. how is this any different?

The idea is that the designs have to be suitable for building in a typical home shop, not that they are required to be built in a home shop.

Is a sewing machine too advanced for a home builder? I would think not, you can buy used industrial sewing machines for about the cost of a good table saw.

Where is this a change in the rules? where in the rules does it say you must count the cost of labor if you do not do the build itself? Did I miss something? Or are you assuming something that is not there?

I should think that one would choose to build boats that are not too sensitive to workmanship. If so, than it would not really be suited to home construction.

You see no difference between racers and builders combining efforts, and paying sailmakers and boatbuilders to make the racer?

I think there is a difference, and it needs to be resolved. I'd like to build for the class at some point, and I'd like to know what's acceptable before I do. Clearly, it would be an advantage to use the Snipe rig I already own, but I certainly wouldn't want to do so if the other builders saw that as unfair.

At this point, I think you need to listen to the people already committed to the class. Two have made it clear by their actions that they think they should be counting the labor to make the sails. Richard Woods clearly thinks he should be allowed to use salvaged sail, mast, rigging, cast aluminum rudder hardware, and foils. He seems to have stopped posting on this thread, but that may simply be because he's been busy with things like the R2AK.

You currently have a hull that you've built by yourself, and no rig. I suspect based on what you've said, you'd like to build your own rig, because you have some radical ideas.

The thing is, now that you've got people building, the rules aren't just yours. Poll the builders and come to a consensus, is my advice, which you are free to take or ignore.