Modern Take on Old Ideas (Fluyt Ship)

[Robert Biegler]

Well, in my defense, I have been through a hurricane in a long-lining vessel in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico on a boat of not 20 meters with only myself, the captain, and his dog where the engine was unable to return us to shore such that we were sucked back out to sea and through the eye of the storm during which time, which is to say the time in the storm and not in the safety of the eye, I was forced to crawl across the bow and right the rope that attached his parachute anchor as best I could to a metal post meant to hold it that had been fully bent over from the power of the storm and, afterward, spending the entirety of the night listening and being shaken in horror as the hull of the ship was lifted several meters into the air and smacked down upon the water over and over and over again. Whereas, on good trips, we would be out for two to four weeks waking before dawn and fishing past dusk. However, it may be that I am not able to fully grasp this great discomfort of cruising on a sail boat of which you mention.

It seems to me that is quite relevant experience. If you want something more specific to your plan, the Galeón Andalucía is available for sail training: EL GALEON - Sail Training International https://sailtraininginternational.org/vessel/el-galeon/

That would give you an idea what it takes to handle that sort of rig.

I think you should take Rumars' comment into account:

Be advised that in larger sizes one off construction economics tend to favor metal or cored builds, not monolithic glass.

What is your motivation in sticking to the mixed aluminium and glass hull? The original motivation, lightning protection, seems groundless now, seeing that lightning protection for composite structures consists of adding electrically conductive material. To be fair, the aluminium parts you have drawn probably will do the job, provided that the masts and rigging connect to the metal, but I can see no advantage over an all aluminium hull, but a number of drawbacks.

If the attraction is that glass and resin may be cheaper than aluminium in China, take into account the materials and time needed to make the mold to build the glass hull.

One thing not mentioned yet is that metal hulls normally have internal structure: stringers and bulkheads or ring frames. If you have those, then inserting a glass hull becomes much more complicated. I don't think building the glass hull separately and then inserting it into the aluminium structure would be feasible. You would have to build the aluminium hull, add a mold, then build the glass hull inside that, then remove the mold. The glass hull would be weakened by wrapping around the internal aluminium structure. You would have to compensate for that.

You could build the aluminium structure out of plate thick enough that it needs no additional stiffeners, but then it needs to be much heavier. Or you could reduce the aluminium structure to just an external keel and a pair of bilge keels or thick rubbing strakes at the bilge.

As far as I know, any continuous composite structure needs to get the resin into the fibre all in one go, and it would be a bad idea to lay out the glass, then wet out one bit, let it set, wet out the next bit, and so on. A local sailor building a trimaran 8 metres long, the main hull weighing perhaps 200 kg, still recruited five volunteers to help him get the resin in all in one go. I doubt that a single person could hand laminate a hull of the size you envision even with slow resin. I don't even know whether it is possible to wet out 30 mm thick laminate by hand.

Resin infusion would let you put all the glass where it belongs over weeks or months, but then you would still need to mix 30 tons of resin and suck it into the laminate all in one go, and you would need all the extra material and equipment, such as large vacuum pumps. And if anything goes wrong, throw it all away and start over. If you build the aluminium structure and join a mold to it, that join will have to be airtight, or the infusion is not going to happen. You will suck in air.

With all aluminium, work can stop and start again any time you like, and you save the time and material for building a mold. Even then, I would let professionals do the job. Just fitting out a hull that large on your own is likely to take years of full time work.

There is a precedent for a single man building a vessel near the size you intend, SV Seeker. It is all metal, avoiding the scheduling problems outlined above, I think it took 10 years of full time work to get it to float, and it is a cautionary tale because Doug insisted on ignoring all advice, came up with his own solutions that create more problems than they solve (my favourite is the mermaid-contour diagonal braces that put sharp metal edges just above the upper bunks), and for all the work he put in, ended up with a vessel that is not fit for purpose despite further years of work after the boat first floated.

I very much agree with this:

try building a little dinghy first for your ship, and see how long that takes you.

Get plans from a source such as Wooden Rowboats: Classic pulling boats, sliding seat shells and wherries, and high-capacity dinghies https://www.clcboats.com/shop/rowboats/, work out how to build a mold, then build in glass, build the aluminium structure, and join the two together.

As for moulding, I have devised a concept to avoid needing as much and will test it tomorrow.

I look forward to seeing what you have come up with.

I may be able to find an article on someone building a glass-hulled canal barge, perhaps half the length of what you intend, but still massive. That might have useful information.

 

[Skipper]

I'm somewhat busy at the moment so will be unable to reply to the comments above till tonight, but wanted to comment on the idea of constructing the hull without a traditional mould. My original plan was to use scaffolding, but I've now come to an idea I believe much superior:

Currently, I'm still waiting for the glue, but the idea is as following; I'll create a 2d map of the 3d surface of the hull and superimpose the image onto one layer of fiber-glass that has had plastic film glued to it. After marking the boundaries, I'll cut it out and stitch it together into a large inflatable such that the plastic coating is on the interior making the structure semi-airtight and the fiber-glass is on the exterior supporting the shape from deformation. After this, I will inflate it as one would a child's bouncy castle with a continuous fan pumping air at a constant rate to maintain proper pressure and therefore shape. Finally, I'll begin laying the fiber-glass and resin as one does upon the surface of the inflatable, first creating a beam running from bow to stern and then from side to side.

Once the glue arrives, I'll make a test structure of some sort using this method to gauge its suitability.

 

[Squidly-Diddly]

I'm gonna go against the grain and say you overall CONCEPT has promise. I was looking at Drake's Golden Hind and thinking something very close to that could make a nice sea-going houseboat and dockside floating condo. I like the way its got two separate raised living quarters and at about 20ft beam you could park even a full size van on the lower middle deck. Yards across the masts could be roller furled if supported by their ends by lines running up to the mast. The sails could be also deployed horizontally to serve as sun/rain shades, or even trampoline living space. Instead of big windows, have authentic looking gun ports with solid outer layer and plexiglass inner layer.

For this sort of project you'd be nuts to use anything but steel IMO. Build a frame and start welding steel planks sort of like how old wooden ships were built.

 

[Rumars]

You can forget the inflatable mold idea, it only works for cylinders and spheres.
This isn't a problem for a bouncing castle, they are indeed made from an agglomeration of such shapes. If you don't want your ship to look like it's made from corrugated sheet metal it won't work. Even using internal bracing doesn't result in a smooth skin and correct shape.

How the molds are done depends on the primary decision of building right side up or inverted. This decision is heavily influenced by the building location, can you pick up and turn the hull after completion? If building inverted the cost of turning is integral to the mold costs, how does it compare to a right side up mold?
Do you have a roof over your head? Do you need one for the chosen hull material in your climate?
Deciding on a mold type before answering this questions is like deciding hull thickness before performing any calculations.

 

[seasquirt]

Hi Skipper, could you consider buying an existing hull, or existing hull plans to build from, and then adapting your topsides vision to the proven hull. It would be quicker and cheaper I'm sure, and most of the NA design and calcs of the hull are already known quantities which you and an NA can work from immediately. If you're bogged down with just how and what hull construction will look like practically, then wait for internal placement and fit out of everything else - restrictions, options, and decisions. If you already have a proven hull with steering and propulsion and tankage and other basics already mostly done, used or new, you can fast track to how it looks on top, and what to include, in a series of lists, spreadsheets, digital renderings, etc., from a known baseline - the original plans. Cut some corners, so you can enjoy using it with your family before you get old and gray doing everything yourself from scratch. Building a 1/10 or 1/20th scale model will take years part time, and be expensive enough to put you off, I'd bet.
The 2023 Sydney to Hobart yacht race recently held has some comments by seasoned world sailors about the poor weather conditions they endured in race ready ocean going yachts. Would your designs weather those storms, and or allow you to run to cover at a port, at an adequate speed, even under power, for your family's safety ?
I hope it all works out for you, but I can't see one man doing it all alone, it's a huge job, but best of luck realising your dream.

 

[BlueBell]

Skip,
I know you're busy, but have you spoken with a Naval Architect yet?
BB

 

[Skipper]

OK Skip, re post #26, how many millions DO you have?
Because even if you build it in China it will still cost you millions.



A polite suggestion - try building a little dinghy first for your ship, and see how long that takes you. Yes really, please do something like this first. Buy a set of plans for $50 for a boat that you like - some plans are even free. There are many available on the internet.
There is absolutely no way that you can build a 33 metre vessel by yourself.
Even a well equipped yacht building yard with a skilled workforce and at least 10 - 15 people working on the boat full time would probably easily take a year to build a one off vessel like this.
Not to mention how you first need to produce all of the design and construction drawings - are you going to produce perhaps a hundred detailed drawings yourself as well?

I'll definitely try building models and such before progressing onto building an actual ship. As for the drawings, I'll probably produce them myself. However, I plan to borrow heavily from the work of others.

Rule of thumb, per sqm, 1kg glass + 1kg resin = 1mm thickness (actual numbers vary by glass content and production technology). 30mm needs 30kg mixed resin, x 1000 = 30000kg. Epoxy resin density varies between 1.2 and 1.3 t/cubic meter, so you need 23-25 cubic meters of epoxy. That's 51-56k USD at your quoted price.

In reality 100k for materials is to low of an estimate, you haven't even considered stiffeners, fairing and paint.

I'm curious about what you have devised for economising on molding, since that's another horse that was beaten to death by now.

Be advised that in larger sizes one off construction economics tend to favor metal or cored builds, not monolithic glass.

The whole mould issue has been giving me pause over glass. I'm starting to lean toward metal.

Skip,

Your material cost estimates seem reasonable.
You're not getting a lot of direct responses to your questions because they are so far out there.
We are not trying to rain on your parade.

If your thread is failing to "float your boat" then I would suggest hiring a Naval Architect.

Cheers, all the best, and good luck.

Thank you for your well wishes. Actually, I appreciate all of the responses and I am open to change, though I sometimes react at the moment as though I'm not.

It seems to me that is quite relevant experience. If you want something more specific to your plan, the Galeón Andalucía is available for sail training: EL GALEON - Sail Training International https://sailtraininginternational.org/vessel/el-galeon/

That would give you an idea what it takes to handle that sort of rig.

I think you should take Rumars' comment into account:

What is your motivation in sticking to the mixed aluminium and glass hull? The original motivation, lightning protection, seems groundless now, seeing that lightning protection for composite structures consists of adding electrically conductive material. To be fair, the aluminium parts you have drawn probably will do the job, provided that the masts and rigging connect to the metal, but I can see no advantage over an all aluminium hull, but a number of drawbacks.

If the attraction is that glass and resin may be cheaper than aluminium in China, take into account the materials and time needed to make the mold to build the glass hull.

One thing not mentioned yet is that metal hulls normally have internal structure: stringers and bulkheads or ring frames. If you have those, then inserting a glass hull becomes much more complicated. I don't think building the glass hull separately and then inserting it into the aluminium structure would be feasible. You would have to build the aluminium hull, add a mold, then build the glass hull inside that, then remove the mold. The glass hull would be weakened by wrapping around the internal aluminium structure. You would have to compensate for that.

You could build the aluminium structure out of plate thick enough that it needs no additional stiffeners, but then it needs to be much heavier. Or you could reduce the aluminium structure to just an external keel and a pair of bilge keels or thick rubbing strakes at the bilge.

As far as I know, any continuous composite structure needs to get the resin into the fibre all in one go, and it would be a bad idea to lay out the glass, then wet out one bit, let it set, wet out the next bit, and so on. A local sailor building a trimaran 8 metres long, the main hull weighing perhaps 200 kg, still recruited five volunteers to help him get the resin in all in one go. I doubt that a single person could hand laminate a hull of the size you envision even with slow resin. I don't even know whether it is possible to wet out 30 mm thick laminate by hand.

Resin infusion would let you put all the glass where it belongs over weeks or months, but then you would still need to mix 30 tons of resin and suck it into the laminate all in one go, and you would need all the extra material and equipment, such as large vacuum pumps. And if anything goes wrong, throw it all away and start over. If you build the aluminium structure and join a mold to it, that join will have to be airtight, or the infusion is not going to happen. You will suck in air.

With all aluminium, work can stop and start again any time you like, and you save the time and material for building a mold. Even then, I would let professionals do the job. Just fitting out a hull that large on your own is likely to take years of full time work.

There is a precedent for a single man building a vessel near the size you intend, SV Seeker. It is all metal, avoiding the scheduling problems outlined above, I think it took 10 years of full time work to get it to float, and it is a cautionary tale because Doug insisted on ignoring all advice, came up with his own solutions that create more problems than they solve (my favourite is the mermaid-contour diagonal braces that put sharp metal edges just above the upper bunks), and for all the work he put in, ended up with a vessel that is not fit for purpose despite further years of work after the boat first floated.

I very much agree with this:

Get plans from a source such as Wooden Rowboats: Classic pulling boats, sliding seat shells and wherries, and high-capacity dinghies https://www.clcboats.com/shop/rowboats/, work out how to build a mold, then build in glass, build the aluminium structure, and join the two together.


I look forward to seeing what you have come up with.

I may be able to find an article on someone building a glass-hulled canal barge, perhaps half the length of what you intend, but still massive. That might have useful information.

Thank you so much for your well-written and comprehensive post. Your comment and those of others have made reflect upon the merits of my original design and reconsider them. At this point, I'm considering alternatives to the hybrid system I originally posted.

 

[Skipper]

Axioms:
Length : 22
Width : 6
Shape : Ellipsoid
Hull Area : 334 m²
Ratio : 69:19
Area Length : ~35
Area Width : ~10

Rebar cost: : 30320
Longitudinal Rebar :
Diameter mm : 8
Length m : 35
Spacing mm : 50
Number of Rows : 200
Cost Per Meter : 3
Required Meters : 7000
Total RMB : 21000
Transverse Rebar :
Diameter mm : 6
Length m : 10
Spacing mm : 75
Number of Rows : 466
Cost Per Meter : 2
Required Meters : 7000
Total RMB : 9320

Mesh cost : 25718
Diameter mm : 2
Spacing mm : 11x11
Shape : Square Grid
Cost Per Sqm. : 11
Layers : 7
Total Area : 2338
Total RMB : 25718

Cement cost : 6500
Thickness of Hull mm : 32
Concrete Cement % : 33%
Cement Needed : 3.5 m³
Needed Weight : 5 tonnes
Cost per KG : 1.3
Total Cost : 6500

Sand : 3375
Sand Size mm : < 2
Concrete Sand % : 66%
Sand Needed : 7.5 m³
Needed Weight : 11.25 tonnes
Cost per Tonne : 300
Total Cost : 3375

-----------------------------------------------
Cost for basic structure: 65,913 rmb


I read of a material called ferrocement which seems promising. I did some calculations and sourced suppliers. I believe I could lower the price from the 66,000 RMB I calculated here substantially were I to enquire directly about buying in bulk. It seems the ferrocement would be far easier to construct as one man. I could construct the metals at my leisure and use a sand sprayer to quickly apply the concrete when ready. Further, I reduced the size to 22 meters as my wife is against spending too much up-front before she can see the ship is tangible.

 

[Rumars]

Axioms:
There are free books on ferro: Ferro Cement Boat Building https://www.boatdesign.net/ferro/ Table of Contents https://www.fao.org/3/V9468E/v9468e00.htm#Contents
You live in a country with a lot of ferro expertise.
A one man ferro build isn't really practical.

 

[messabout]

Why are you planning to use an ellipsoid shape? Do you have evidence that moving water will be happy with that sort of shape? Is it possible that some other shape might create less form drag?

 

[bajansailor]

Further, I reduced the size to 22 meters as my wife is against spending too much up-front before she can see the ship is tangible.

Your wife is very wise. At least you are now under the 24 metre loadline rule.
If your wife wants to see a tangible vessel, there are many very fine and seaworthy 22 metre sailing vessels for sale on line - here is a link to a random Scorpio 72 which has a very jaunty sheerline, a clipper bow, nice accommodation...... and she will sail MUCH better and be MUCH more seaworthy than the vessel in your initial proposal.
Not to mention the cost, at approx US$ 500k, is but a fraction of what it will cost you to build your galleon in China.
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1990-ta-chiao-scorpio-72-8022562/

 

[C. Dog]

I really like what you have done. Cannot comment on the rig with any authority but suggest you reconsider using aluminium. It is a high maintenance boat building material for boats that live in the drink. Readily prone to catastrophic galvanic and electrolytic corrosion, both of which thrive around electrolytes like salty water.

 

[Skipper]

I'm gonna go against the grain and say you overall CONCEPT has promise. I was looking at Drake's Golden Hind and thinking something very close to that could make a nice sea-going houseboat and dockside floating condo. I like the way its got two separate raised living quarters and at about 20ft beam you could park even a full size van on the lower middle deck. Yards across the masts could be roller furled if supported by their ends by lines running up to the mast. The sails could be also deployed horizontally to serve as sun/rain shades, or even trampoline living space. Instead of big windows, have authentic looking gun ports with solid outer layer and plexiglass inner layer.

For this sort of project you'd be nuts to use anything but steel IMO. Build a frame and start welding steel planks sort of like how old wooden ships were built.

Thank you for the encouragement, it's nice having someone say I'm not completely mad.

You can forget the inflatable mold idea, it only works for cylinders and spheres.
This isn't a problem for a bouncing castle, they are indeed made from an agglomeration of such shapes. If you don't want your ship to look like it's made from corrugated sheet metal it won't work. Even using internal bracing doesn't result in a smooth skin and correct shape.

How the molds are done depends on the primary decision of building right side up or inverted. This decision is heavily influenced by the building location, can you pick up and turn the hull after completion? If building inverted the cost of turning is integral to the mold costs, how does it compare to a right side up mold?
Do you have a roof over your head? Do you need one for the chosen hull material in your climate?
Deciding on a mold type before answering this questions is like deciding hull thickness before performing any calculations.

I'm reading about ferrocement now and will try to find the best location for its construction. In the city I reside, there are many choices for build sites such that I will be free to choose.

Hi Skipper, could you consider buying an existing hull, or existing hull plans to build from, and then adapting your topsides vision to the proven hull. It would be quicker and cheaper I'm sure, and most of the NA design and calcs of the hull are already known quantities which you and an NA can work from immediately. If you're bogged down with just how and what hull construction will look like practically, then wait for internal placement and fit out of everything else - restrictions, options, and decisions. If you already have a proven hull with steering and propulsion and tankage and other basics already mostly done, used or new, you can fast track to how it looks on top, and what to include, in a series of lists, spreadsheets, digital renderings, etc., from a known baseline - the original plans. Cut some corners, so you can enjoy using it with your family before you get old and gray doing everything yourself from scratch. Building a 1/10 or 1/20th scale model will take years part time, and be expensive enough to put you off, I'd bet.
The 2023 Sydney to Hobart yacht race recently held has some comments by seasoned world sailors about the poor weather conditions they endured in race ready ocean going yachts. Would your designs weather those storms, and or allow you to run to cover at a port, at an adequate speed, even under power, for your family's safety ?
I hope it all works out for you, but I can't see one man doing it all alone, it's a huge job, but best of luck realising your dream.

I'm open to just about anything, though I'd need to consider it from various perspectives including how much each option fits what I want from a ship and also, a prominent concern, financing.

Skip,
I know you're busy, but have you spoken with a Naval Architect yet?
BB

No, I do not believe myself far enough along to spend money on such at this stage. I'll wait till I have a solid concept and then find an expert to verify and, possibly, correct what I have proposed.

Axioms:
There are free books on ferro: Ferro Cement Boat Building https://www.boatdesign.net/ferro/ Table of Contents https://www.fao.org/3/V9468E/v9468e00.htm#Contents
You live in a country with a lot of ferro expertise.
A one man ferro build isn't really practical.

Thank you for the resources, I've downloaded the pdfs and have started reading a bit into them. If need be, I'll be able to hire local labour at a low price.

Why are you planning to use an ellipsoid shape? Do you have evidence that moving water will be happy with that sort of shape? Is it possible that some other shape might create less form drag?

No, the shape is not actually ellipsoid. I simply used an ellipsoid as an approximation to calculate the needed materials. I apologize for not making it clearer above.

Your wife is very wise. At least you are now under the 24 metre loadline rule.
If your wife wants to see a tangible vessel, there are many very fine and seaworthy 22 metre sailing vessels for sale on line - here is a link to a random Scorpio 72 which has a very jaunty sheerline, a clipper bow, nice accommodation...... and she will sail MUCH better and be MUCH more seaworthy than the vessel in your initial proposal.
Not to mention the cost, at approx US$ 500k, is but a fraction of what it will cost you to build your galleon in China.
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1990-ta-chiao-scorpio-72-8022562/

View attachment 192655

I can't help but think I can build my ship here at a far lower price than 4,000,000 RMB. Of-course, I am excluding the cost of labour and time, but, from rough calculations of the remaining costs, I am arriving at a far lower number.
For example, the prices of waterproof carpet, wallpaper, and ceiling are all quite low and constructing 700 sqm of sail from carbon fiber rated at 1000D doesn't take 30,000 RMB. Further, the ability to space out the costs over the time-frame of the build allows me to avoid high upfront costs. I truly cannot understand how you keep coming to the idea that it would be cheaper to buy a ship than construct one as the numbers I have seen clearly refute the claim.

 

[bajansailor]

I truly cannot understand how you keep coming to the idea that it would be cheaper to buy a ship than construct one as the numbers I have seen clearly refute the claim.

Ok then, you will just have to find out the hard way, and by the time you start to realise this, you will be very committed to the project.

You say that you are excluding the cost of labour - you simply cannot build even a 22 metre long vessel (never mind a 33 metre vessel) by yourself without a lot of additional help.
And even with 'cheap' Chinese labour, the cost is still going to be significant.
I think you will realise (much too late) that buying a well proven yacht for US$500k that can set sail tomorrow will cost much less (and be much less stress!) than building your own vessel, even in China.

 

[gonzo]

It seems the ferrocement would be far easier to construct as one man.

Plastering is a highly skilled trade. Also, you should ideally make it all in one shot. The crew usually has one man mixing and carrying material and at least three plasterers. Two men work on one side and the third on the other. Interior scaffolding is necessary. There should also be at least one laborer to carry heavy stuff and move scaffolding. A single person can only do little sections at a time.