Modern Take on Old Ideas (Fluyt Ship)

Messabout, you reply to Skipper starts by saying "I have lurked on the web site for many years."

I thought its best to make you aware of your English, as do you understand what the word "Lurked" means, as Skipper would be confused if he looks up
LURK | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary
There is no need for any forms of insults, degrading and put downs on boat design and happy you have personally apologized to Skipper as I have myself on behalf of boat design members.
Let's all move on
Thank you.
 
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View attachment 192495
So, this is just a concept image. However, the basic idea is to make a solid fiber-glass hull (white part of boat) with an aluminum frame holding it (brown part). The sails are rigged like a brig, but with a genoa. I'm thinking 30mm thick hulls. The ship will be about 33 meters long and 8 meters across. I bought the fiber-glass and such and I'm going to make a small ~1 meter sized model of this concept. If that works out, I'll make a 1/10th model. Finally, if nothing is amiss, I'll start on the real deal. Any ideas on this? It's going to be a houseboat.

Since you started the thread I'm wondering if your design is made with help from AI. Is it?
 
Hi Skipper

What part of China do you reside, as I am coming to China later this year to build watercraft inventions and maybe we meet.
I developed designs in Gr5 titanium, aluminum and other types and metals for 12 years in China and expert with heat treatments, lost wax investment casting, mold tooling's CNC and EDM machining and much more plus I think outside the box and are not conventional thinking and like what you are doing.
One of my past experiences on modern ship structure design is working for Austal's ships the largest aluminum ship builder in the world.
The picture attached is a ship I helped build from start to finish and the structure design is very simple, light and strong.
Aluminum is low a very price in China and good quality as the ship pictured the aluminum came from China as the same as my boat inventions aluminum.
I love China and the respect. and kindness I received was absolutely amassing and feel your emotion's and very sorry for the rudeness you have received.

View attachment 192711
Myark;

Will that ama-stabilized super-slender vessel behind you that picture be foil-assisted?
 
To put the costs into perspective:
TS Royalist, launched 2014, steel brig, LOA 31.9m (LBP 27m), 565sqm sail area, £4.8 million.
Grain de Sail, launched 2020, aluminium cargo schooner, LOA 24.24m (LBP 22m), 520sqm sail area (400sqm upwind), €1.8 million.
Boat Shaped Object Seeker, launched 2022, steel junk, LOA 22.5m (declared), 204sqm sail area (uncertain), $0.5 million (rumored).

The Royalist is a fully equipped sail training vessel designed and built in Spain. Grain de Sail is as barebones as it comes (it has a 6hp engine onboard for legal reasons) and was designed and built in France. Both are classed vessels, took around 1-1.5 years from awarding the contract to first voyage and have proven to be successful.
Seeker was amateur designed and built, isn't able to use its sails, barely motors, and will never be fit for purpose.

Even with chinese prices and a healthy dose of free labor if the boat has to cross oceans comfortably you have to be prepared to spend half a million USD. If you want it significantly cheaper you have to accept safety and outfitting standards from the 19th century, there is no way around it. If she is to be just a houseboat that doesn't go anywhere then yes, it's possible to build her cheap and have hot water on tap.
 
Just calculate the cost of the rig and sails. I believe it is impossible to get a self tending and roller furling (the only way to avoid a large crew to go aloft) for 0.5 million US dollars.
 
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Gonzo,
I request you offer productive advice in a friendly manner or excuse yourself from my thread. Thank you.

For your perusal, I've compiled your comments such that you might see through your solipsism and grow some empathy if that is not "beyond your skill level":

Does trolling those new to this give you some feeling of superiority that you lack elsewhere? Please, don't passive aggressively take your impotent rage out on me.

I have a feeling Skipper has had enough as from my 12 years living in China, to deliberately try and make someone lose face and mock them in front of a crowd let alone this boat forum is the worst thing you can do.
What a shame
 
I'd like to know what Skipper means by "Houseboat" as in what sort of sailing and it what waters he intends.

"Houseboat" in USA generally means something built to RV "House Trailer" specs stacked on a barge or pontoons and only intended for VERY sheltered water ways. Some are a bit more seaworthy with something closer to real boat hulls but are still light duty and only meant to chug around slowly on flat water. If that is what he means then involving a real NA early is less important.

But if he wants a real sea going large boat that will also be a Live Aboard, IMO you want to visit a NA first to get one or two "General Arrangements" and hull shapes, then you start thinking about details.
If you are after a real sailing boat that will also be a Live Abroad, this guy has several plans for old fashioned large sail boats. http://www.kastenmarine.com/sail.htm
 
If you are after a real sailing boat that will also be a Live Abroad, this guy has several plans for old fashioned large sail boats

@Skipper, this 66' Privateer schooner would probably suit your needs?
She would sail better than a Fluyt, and plans are available 'off the shelf'.
You could re-draw the plans for your chosen construction material, or even ask Michael to do this for you.
https://www.kastenmarine.com/sulawesi_privateer_66.htm

20m_sulawesi_privateer_sail_plan.png
 
He doesn't want to go aloft. That rig will make the crew climb about 50 feet.

Maybe he could fit roller furling devices on the square sails that can be operated from deck level?
 
Furlers have been around for quite a while. There did require some work aloft anyway; particularly when they get fouled. A fore and aft rig is more conducive to a small crew.
 
Before you mix the materials as you outlined, check how they move, both when a load is applied and when temperature changes. Expansion at different rates will put a stress on the joint.

If the glass fibre hull is just built inside the aluminium parts, such that they are only held together mechanically, they will move against each other and erode. If you want to bond them together, here is one source on what to do with the aluminium first: A Beginner’s Guide to Using Aluminum Epoxy https://www.hotmelt.com/blogs/blog/a-beginner-s-guide-to-using-aluminum-epoxy
I have been a casual and infrequent lurker (reader, not member) for a decade or two and have some professional experience with aluminum in seawater.

Meter size FRP panels in an aluminum frame exposed to seawater, vibration and wracking loads: been there done that. If you can think of a way it could go wrong, it did, on much smaller scale. Something this size would be much more difficult to manage.

The beginners guide to epoxy looks to me like it was written by the marketing department by a beginner for using their adhesive in a dry environment. Someone in marketing read some obsolete literature and wrote up a brief summary. It isn't all bad, but not all good either. Replacing 'Step 3 Etch the surface' with 'apply a conversion coating' would be better. For a large structures, grit blast, then pretreat with a non-chromate conversion coating, which includes the rinse, then prime with a two part corrosion inhibiting epoxy primer. Much better to look for information from Henkel Loctite, 3M or anyone who sells non-chromate pretreatments. In salt water, without a conversion coating, the bond will eventually fail. The bond interface needs a corrosion inhibitor. Moisture will always work its way to the bond line, and without a pretreatment, corrosion will spread under the coating. As far as the interface is concerned, there is no difference between paints and adhesives. The plating advice is for small parts in protected environments. Far too much detail to go into here.

As for the overall concept, I can only say that I am reminded of Phil Bolger's Rose on one end of the scale and any number of disasters near the bottom. Rose is about 38 m long. His description in 30-Odd Boats is worth reading here. The lines are in the book along with offsetts and some construction plans. It took Bolger, a professional NA, 6 months to produce 30 sheets of plans that did not fully detail the construction. Bolger preferred to call designs intended to mimic a historical vessels representations, not replicas because there are always unknowns and deliberate deviations. The main similarities are the size and appearance with an intended use that is very different from the historical vessels of similar appearance. The construction was traditional, so it does not apply here.

I got lost somewhere between massive FRP panels bonded to an aluminum frame and ferrocement. I think we are trending for all aluminum. Al should be certified to meet ASTM D928 to avoid cracking problems, or give up some strength and look at Al5052. Ferrocemet as been done very well but only very rarely. I read about a company in Maine that researched ferrocement with the intent to build some boats back in the 70s. They evaluated various ratios of steel to concrete for any number of cost and performance parameters. The article said that when they graphed the data, every one pointed to 100% steel as the optimum ratio. They went into the steel boat business and never looked back.
 
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