Modern Take on Old Ideas (Fluyt Ship)

[BlueBell]

I truly cannot understand how you keep coming to the idea that it would be cheaper to buy a ship than construct one as the numbers I have seen clearly refute the claim.

Oh Skippy, how naive and misguided you are.
I think the sooner you speak with a Naval Architect, the better.
But what do I know.

 

[bajansailor]

I'll wait till I have a solid concept and then find an expert to verify and, possibly, correct what I have proposed.

Skip, all of the fine gentlemen who have commented on your proposal so far can easily be considered to be experts in the marine field - look at their previous posts in other threads and they all talk common sense based on years of experience.
They have been trying to correct you, but you have summarily rebuffed them - you know better.
They are all just too polite to tell you bluntly that you have a VERY long way to go before you can even start to think about designing and building a 22 metre vessel yourself.

 

[gonzo]

It's the old square wheel syndrome. My wheel is better than the usual round ones because it is different.

 

[Robert Biegler]

I can't help but think I can build my ship here at a far lower price than 4,000,000 RMB. Of-course, I am excluding the cost of labour and time, but, from rough calculations of the remaining costs, I am arriving at a far lower number.
[...] I truly cannot understand how you keep coming to the idea that it would be cheaper to buy a ship than construct one as the numbers I have seen clearly refute the claim.

How large a proportion of the total cost goes to hull materials depends on the vessel. If you build a six hour canoe, then materials cost may well be the majority of the cost. If you already have the necessary tools and workshop, and you enjoy the building process itself, you can even count it as all the cost.

Not being a naval architect or boat builder, I have to go by what I read, so crosscheck what follows with other sources. For a vessel the size you are talking about, the hull materials are likely to be less than 10% of the total cost, depending on material, design, and building method. There is the cost of all the systems a large vessel needs: engine, lights, electric system, plumbing, heating, cooking. That can easily cost more than the hull. Labour for both hull and systems is likely to cost more than materials. Then there is the rig and the sails. You want to largely automate a rig that few people have tried to automate. There is a cost to developing those systems, testing them, discarding some, and trying again.

If you do the work yourself, you may not count labour cost in money, but you do have to count it in time. The point of the boat is to travel with your family. If you spend ten years on a second full time boat building job, you will hardly have a family life, and by the time you're done, they may not know you well enough to want to come with you. Then there are the tools, and the cost of the workshop. Even if you don't rent, you have to heat and maintain what you have. That costs money.

Search for information from people who had boats custom built and break down the costs. See how much the hull materials are as a fraction of the total. From the labour cost and hourly wage, calculate the working hours, then double or triple them because professionals will be more efficient than you, and some jobs are just very slow without additional hands.

Boats depreciate quickly. That is bad if you want an investment, but good if you want to get on the water cheaper than buying a new factory made or custom built boat. There are enough second hand boats that building something yourself is rarely cheaper. That only pays if either the building is its own reward, or if you absolutely want something you can't buy. So you have to ask how much that row away factor matters, compared to the money and the time.

 

[Squidly-Diddly]

here is pretty close to what you'd need to do to actually do something like you propose.
2017 Home Made Chinese Junk sailboat for sale in Alabama https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/66624
some similar and iirc larger steel junk has been launched, and IIRC its more utilitarian and meant for a work boat for research support.

 

[Skipper]

I'll reply to the above posts later tonight, but, for now, I've been working on the general layout of the ship and how it will be partitioned and wanted to share this image I've constructed:

The concept image in the background is not quite perfect and requires updating; nevertheless, it offers a general depiction of my current vision for the completed ship. To achieve a better equilibrium, I have relocated the kitchen and dining room forward. The top image represents the aerial view of the middle floor. The connecting space that adjoins all the rooms is the hallway, while its protruding section is the stairwell. Larger squares denote large beds, while smaller squares represent columns that support the masts. Toward the bow, the parlour accommodates a sofa and two chairs encircling a table. Access to the rear refrigeration chamber is obtained through pull-down stairs situated in the kitchen above.

 

[gonzo]

That layout will be terrible in a seaway. There is nothing to hold on to when the boat rolls and pitches. The crew will be thrown around. Designing a boat is beyond your skill level. What you draw are boat cartoons and not a design.

 

[Skipper]

Gonzo,
I request you offer productive advice in a friendly manner or excuse yourself from my thread. Thank you.

For your perusal, I've compiled your comments such that you might see through your solipsism and grow some empathy if that is not "beyond your skill level":

Your best bet of not dying is to either hire a Naval Architect or use an existing design and do some modifications. As for mechanizing all the sails, you should look at Maltese Falcon. They already solved all those issues. MALTESE FALCON Yacht for Charter - IYC MALTESE FALCON Yacht for Charter - IYC https://iyc.com/charter/maltese-falcon/ However, it cost 150 million dollars to build in 2006. The building method you propose is really bad. Also, the drawing shows a top heavy boat with huge glass windows; the complete opposite of an ocean going vessel. It looks like a dockside attraction at Disney World or somewhere in Vegas.

Aluminum and polyester resin are not compatible materials. It would take a lot more than a post to be able to explain the mechanics of materials and chemical interaction, but you can do some research and take some courses on it.
Lightning protection is a complicated issue that does not have a simple solution. To start with, avoiding hitting coral is largely a matter of good seamanship. Further, EMP from lightning strikes can completely destroy all your electronics and usually does.
The old brigs and fluyts had staggering loss of life at sea that would be unacceptable today.
Cargo ships only sail well when loaded. Cargo ships converted to pleasure usually behave badly and have structural issues like hogging.
You probably will get better informed by going out sailing in rough weather. It may be that the dream of sailing around the world is not for you. Sadly for many dreamers, the discomfort and lack of sleep that are a reality of cruising across oceans often destroy the dreams.

That layout will be terrible in a seaway. There is nothing to hold on to when the boat rolls and pitches. The crew will be thrown around. Designing a boat is beyond your skill level. What you draw are boat cartoons and not a design.

Does trolling those new to this give you some feeling of superiority that you lack elsewhere? Please, don't passive aggressively take your impotent rage out on me.

 

[CarlosK2]

This forum ...

has really very very good software.

 

[myark]

Hi Skipper

What part of China do you reside, as I am coming to China later this year to build watercraft inventions and maybe we meet.
I developed designs in Gr5 titanium, aluminum and other types and metals for 12 years in China and expert with heat treatments, lost wax investment casting, mold tooling's CNC and EDM machining and much more plus I think outside the box and are not conventional thinking and like what you are doing.
One of my past experiences on modern ship structure design is working for Austal's ships the largest aluminum ship builder in the world.
The picture attached is a ship I helped build from start to finish and the structure design is very simple, light and strong.
Aluminum is low a very price in China and good quality as the ship pictured the aluminum came from China as the same as my boat inventions aluminum.
I love China and the respect. and kindness I received was absolutely amassing and feel your emotion's and very sorry for the rudeness you have received.

 

[gonzo]

Gonzo,
I request you offer productive advice in a friendly manner or excuse yourself from my thread. Thank you.

For your perusal, I've compiled your comments such that you might see through your solipsism and grow some empathy if that is not "beyond your skill level":

It is an honest assessment. The cost of a Naval Architect for the basic design will be a small fraction of the total cost. Giving you advice so you don't either waste time and money, or worse die, is an attempt to make you face reality.

 

[Ad Hoc]

..... For a vessel the size you are talking about, the hull materials are likely to be less than 10% of the total cost, depending on material, design, and building method. There is the cost of all the systems a large vessel needs: engine, lights, electric system, plumbing, heating, cooking. That can easily cost more than the hull. Labour for both hull and systems is likely to cost more than materials. Then there is the rig and the sails. You want to largely automate a rig that few people have tried to automate. There is a cost to developing those systems, testing them, discarding some, and trying again.

If you do the work yourself, you may not count labour cost in money, but you do have to count it in time. ...

Indeed!

A vessel of this size will require a minimum of 60,000 hours of work.
If you are doing this "by yourself", then one assumes you can divide 60,000 hours by 40hours per week....to arrive at how long this alone will take you.

...Does trolling those new to this give you some feeling of superiority that you lack elsewhere? Please, don't passive aggressively take your impotent rage out on me.

You came on this site for advice and comments.
You got it....whether the message is delivered in a softly spoken manner or a blunt one, the message remains the same.

Ergo, why seek advice/comments from those that you seek advice/comments on as more knowledge than you, if you are only going to listen to those that that are signing from your hymn sheet?

There are no emotions in engineering, only facts.
Gonzo gave you some...

 

[myark]

Gonzo,
I request you offer productive advice in a friendly manner or excuse yourself from my thread. Thank you.

For your perusal, I've compiled your comments such that you might see through your solipsism and grow some empathy if that is not "beyond your skill level":






Does trolling those new to this give you some feeling of superiority that you lack elsewhere? Please, don't passive aggressively take your impotent rage out on me.

Hi Skipper
The last thing you need is an aggressive rude naval architect advice that does not think outside the box as I experienced one in NZ when I built to a USA standard survey a 12.m x 3.6 landing craft which I built 26 years ago in less than two months that is pictured straight out of the workshop and into the water on a 60mile journey to an island with very happy customers as you can see.
He thought he could look down on me and be rude, so I fired him on the spot, marched him out of my workshop and hired another as they are a dime a dozen.
At this stage you are at the beginning of toying with the idea as that's how ideas come into reality as my watercraft inventions have, also your unconventional ideas are not anywhere near the stage off an ongoing expensive architect fees, and why you came to boat design forum for feedback of a rough idea, and to not be ridiculed, even if your idea is not viable, kindness and respect for people's feelings show ones true personality.

 

[Squidly-Diddly]

here is pretty close to what you'd need to do to actually do something like you propose.
2017 Home Made Chinese Junk sailboat for sale in Alabama https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/66624
some similar and iirc larger steel junk has been launched, and IIRC its more utilitarian and meant for a work boat for research support.

Here is the 74' junk that was DIY in his front yard and successfully launched.

SV Seeker | SV Seeker: The Boat the Internet Built https://www.svseeker.com/

 

[messabout]

I have lurked on the web site for many years. Lots of good stuff here, some of it brilliant. There has been a continuous stream of imaginative people with limited, or no experience in the art and science of boat design. They have brought their ideas. Some are good ideas many are not so good.

Some really bright, educated, experienced veteran, and professional boat people have responded with the very best of intentions. When the knowledgeable people respond it is in the best interest of the person who made the original post with their new, sometime fatally flawed design.

Our administrator does a thorough job of monitoring these threads. He/she is pretty damned strict about having the forum remain civil and reasonably courteous. I personally apologize to this OP if he/she believes that we are putting them down for the purpose of massaging our own egos. That is not the case.