There have been 2 recent high profile accidents in the Farrier trimaran world. The first was an old F 27 that was competing in the Round the Island race in Britian that was a case of being hit by a gust during a race and capsized (a Gunboat 60 plus cat also capsized during the same event). The second more troubling event was the failure of a Corsair 880 in the Race to Alaska. This was a fresh from the factory new tri that had significant structural issues during the first week of the event. The Corsair was eventually a “write off” according to its owners.
The Corsair 880 is designed by François Perus, from Pérus Yacht Design has designed several trimarans for Corsair. The Corsair 880 is 28.7 x 22.25 foot and can be folded to 8.2 foot for trailering. The weight is 3,659 lbs. The sail area on the standard 40 foot carbon mast is 554 square foot and on the sports version, the 44 foot carbon mast carries 677 square foot. The “Sport” version has the taller carbon rig, laminate sails with high-aspect square-top main and sprit. The length to beam on the main hull at the waterline is 9.5 to 1. The float length to beam is 15 to 1 to 13 to 1 depending on how hard you are sailing. The draft is 5.25 foot with the daggerboard down and 1.25 foot with the board up. The rudder is a transom hung kickup. The hull, deck and amas are all vacuum infused with E-glass, a PVC closed-cell core and carbon-fiber reinforcements for added strength where it makes sense.
From here I will give you some quotes from the Farrier group. Draw your own conclusions.
I’m sorry guys, I didn’t make it clear. The quote is from Team Tres Equis Facebook group
Team Tres Equis | Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/538038325003081/?ref=sharehttps://www.facebook.com/groups/538038325003081/?ref%3Dshare&exp=8ce3&mibextid=S66gvF
the team sailed brand new Corsair 880 in R2AK 2023 and had to abandon the race due to the boat failing apart.
“The boat fell apart under normal conditions on its fifth day on the water and is not fixable. The transverse bulkhead cracked on the starboard side on day two which required a field repair before starting stage two. The rudder cassette cracked about 4.5 inches under no load. The areas around where the armas attach were moving and water started penetrating the hull on both port and starboard… this indicated a catastrophic failure was in the near future so we turned around. Of 5 total days on the water 10 hours were in 20-25kts. About an hour cumulative was closer to 30kts and the rest was less than 20 kts.”
Re: R2AK - Structural Failures - A Cause for Concern?
From: martyn adams Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 02:49:32 AEST
FWIW, this was not quite your typical day sail or your typical sailboat race. I don’t know just how severe the conditions were but do have a little experience in the area north and west of Campbell River and specifically Johnstone Strt.
I watched with interest the audio/video clips of the Round the Island race and compared it with what I have experienced locally and up north. Two things are noteworthy.
Wind and current interactions can be similar and many of us have probably sailed in the crank sea conditions that result. The short steep but predictable waves can be tiring after 30 minutes or an hour but they are a challenge and are a fun topic for the conversation of the evening. The boat has flexed, twisted and creaked and no harm done…maybe. How many times the always present structural weak link was approached we never know and rarely even think about. That clank as the boat shoulders past a piece of junk in the water, forgotten.
A big difference between Round The Island race and R2AK however is the way the wind is constantly twisted by the ever present valleys formed by the islands that make up the Strait north of Vancouver island. Five to six thousand foot mountains on one side and dozens if not hundreds of channels between the islands on the other, it is very different from the Strait of Juan de Fuca which is a pretty straight channel between two mountains and a 25+ mile wide sound between England and France. I am not belittling either, only offering the difference.
I found that the sailing can be very different given the same overall wind and current conditions, especially at the upper extremes. I have never been out for 20 or 30 hours of pounding in those conditions. Frankly, I don’t believe our boats were designed and built for that punishment.
In my opinion, it is not a question of structural deficiencies. It is more a question of putting the vessel in conditions beyond its design limits for a time necessary for every weakness to be explored. If that cumulative design limit was exceeded in the first hour or after 30 years, the structure doesn’t care. You only feel better if it’s the latter, maybe.
Oh, btw, you can exceed those design limits within six miles of port Townsend in the right conditions.
Cheers, Martyn Adams
Re: R2AK - Structural Failures - A Cause for Concern?
From: KEVIN GRICE Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 04:31:55 AEST
See the descriptions on what failed in Chad's note below from the Team Tres Equis facebook page. Although you should feel free to reach out to Chad the owner via email and see if he is willing to share more detail. We also should ask all the US Corsair dealers to be transparent in what they know of the status and investigation. In my personal experience, Corsair is not responsive unless pushed and then will go out of their way to deny responsibility - my former Pulse 600 with gel coat blisters and deck delamination are a prime example. I didn't hear anything - despite numerous letters and contact efforts until I involved the Boat US consumer affairs representative. The Corsair Factory Rep then made up a story that I had purchased a used boat that was kept on a mooring without bottom paint!, this despite the fact the boat was purchased new and was never stored in the water. $8000 latter I had a repaired boat and a lingering distrust of Corsair. If it was a US company I would have sued but pursuing litigation in Vietnam would not likely be worth the effort. Yes I did purchase another Corsair, but you can be sure I'm looking for any evidence of cracks/delam well within the 5 year hull warranty. I'm watching my rudder cassette in particular given the Tres Equis experience.
The boat fell apart under normal conditions on its fifth day on the water and is not fixable. The transverse bulkhead cracked on the starboard side on day two which required a field repair before starting stage two. The rudder cassette cracked about 4.5 inches under no load. The areas around where the armas attach were moving and water started penetrating the hull on both port and starboard… this indicated a catastrophic failure was in the near future so we turned around. Of 5 total days on the water 10 hours were in 20-25kts. About an hour cumulative was closer to 30kts and the rest was less than 20. My email is ctwilson@cwilsonlaw.com
Kevin C760 Icarus
Re: R2AK - Structural Failures - A Cause for Concern?
From: Jeff Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 13:32:00 AEST
Ouch... Older Boat. Ruf Duck is deeply wounded.
I think that the starboard ring frame/lower strut mount is a pretty well known spot to keep an eye on. Maybe the reason we did not break Ruf Duck at that location this year is that we already did it a few years back. We beefed it up and have not had any trouble since. Maybe some people will not get this analogy... but if you ever 4 wheeled seriously you know that you do not buy a Jeep off the showroom floor and expect to do serious rock crawling or run through the Rubicon Trail (dating myself... but this is prior to their "trail rated" system... and even at that you would probably do some stuff). You could run that stock unit through the mill.. and maybe you get lucky... but you typically do things to make your ride more capable before you go. Most F boats or Corsairs are just that... off the show room floor. The only F boat that I am aware of that was advertised as something of an off shore (ie stronger) boat was the F33 (feel free to point me to text that corrects me). Uber envelope pushers like Cheeky Monkey (While it was in BC I think) went so far as to completely fill the cutout to the V berth in order to strengthen this area.
I am not saying that there was not something wrong with the laminate that caused the issues being discussed. I saw the crack in Victoria... and sailed the same leg from PT. It was a mild day and nothing that should have caused an issue to a properly set up stock boat that had no prior issues.
I will say that if I saw this same problem developing... I probably would have bailed on the race. After all... I had been there the year before and had seen a few things...
Jeff
Team Ruf Duck
Corsair 880 or Dragonfly 28 for solo ocean passages? https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/corsair-880-or-dragonfly-28-for-solo-ocean-passages.242165/
According to Francois Perus (880 designer) the 880 uses the same laminate schedule as Corsair’s other production models so presumably it would have a similar level of robustness, even if not intended to cross an ocean. The main thing I’d be concerned about with crossing an ocean with a production Corsair boat is the tendency seen in a few models for the forward bulkheads adjacent to the lower folding struts to delaminate from the main hull under heavier conditions. It can be fixed/reinforced by tabbing to the hull, but not in the middle of an ocean! Both the Corsair 880 and Dragonfly 28 have CE ratings of (B) for sailing within 200 NM of shore, so you might not be able to get insurance for either for crossing an ocean.
The question for me is the design limits for the Corsair 880. If it is rated to 200 miles offshore, good but that does not mean it is structurally designed to sail/race through EG 50 knot winds in big seas. Clearer messages in marketing of products would help. Reality is conditions may have been to much for the tri, the tri may have hit things, there may have been build issues or the design limits were reached. Further understanding from Corsair will help us understand.
First jpeg is F 27 in the Round Island Race, rest of the jpegs are of the Corsair 880. Page 181 of this thread does a fuller analysis of the Corsair 880.
The Corsair 880 is designed by François Perus, from Pérus Yacht Design has designed several trimarans for Corsair. The Corsair 880 is 28.7 x 22.25 foot and can be folded to 8.2 foot for trailering. The weight is 3,659 lbs. The sail area on the standard 40 foot carbon mast is 554 square foot and on the sports version, the 44 foot carbon mast carries 677 square foot. The “Sport” version has the taller carbon rig, laminate sails with high-aspect square-top main and sprit. The length to beam on the main hull at the waterline is 9.5 to 1. The float length to beam is 15 to 1 to 13 to 1 depending on how hard you are sailing. The draft is 5.25 foot with the daggerboard down and 1.25 foot with the board up. The rudder is a transom hung kickup. The hull, deck and amas are all vacuum infused with E-glass, a PVC closed-cell core and carbon-fiber reinforcements for added strength where it makes sense.
From here I will give you some quotes from the Farrier group. Draw your own conclusions.
I’m sorry guys, I didn’t make it clear. The quote is from Team Tres Equis Facebook group
Team Tres Equis | Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/538038325003081/?ref=sharehttps://www.facebook.com/groups/538038325003081/?ref%3Dshare&exp=8ce3&mibextid=S66gvF
the team sailed brand new Corsair 880 in R2AK 2023 and had to abandon the race due to the boat failing apart.
“The boat fell apart under normal conditions on its fifth day on the water and is not fixable. The transverse bulkhead cracked on the starboard side on day two which required a field repair before starting stage two. The rudder cassette cracked about 4.5 inches under no load. The areas around where the armas attach were moving and water started penetrating the hull on both port and starboard… this indicated a catastrophic failure was in the near future so we turned around. Of 5 total days on the water 10 hours were in 20-25kts. About an hour cumulative was closer to 30kts and the rest was less than 20 kts.”
Re: R2AK - Structural Failures - A Cause for Concern?
From: martyn adams Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 02:49:32 AEST
FWIW, this was not quite your typical day sail or your typical sailboat race. I don’t know just how severe the conditions were but do have a little experience in the area north and west of Campbell River and specifically Johnstone Strt.
I watched with interest the audio/video clips of the Round the Island race and compared it with what I have experienced locally and up north. Two things are noteworthy.
Wind and current interactions can be similar and many of us have probably sailed in the crank sea conditions that result. The short steep but predictable waves can be tiring after 30 minutes or an hour but they are a challenge and are a fun topic for the conversation of the evening. The boat has flexed, twisted and creaked and no harm done…maybe. How many times the always present structural weak link was approached we never know and rarely even think about. That clank as the boat shoulders past a piece of junk in the water, forgotten.
A big difference between Round The Island race and R2AK however is the way the wind is constantly twisted by the ever present valleys formed by the islands that make up the Strait north of Vancouver island. Five to six thousand foot mountains on one side and dozens if not hundreds of channels between the islands on the other, it is very different from the Strait of Juan de Fuca which is a pretty straight channel between two mountains and a 25+ mile wide sound between England and France. I am not belittling either, only offering the difference.
I found that the sailing can be very different given the same overall wind and current conditions, especially at the upper extremes. I have never been out for 20 or 30 hours of pounding in those conditions. Frankly, I don’t believe our boats were designed and built for that punishment.
In my opinion, it is not a question of structural deficiencies. It is more a question of putting the vessel in conditions beyond its design limits for a time necessary for every weakness to be explored. If that cumulative design limit was exceeded in the first hour or after 30 years, the structure doesn’t care. You only feel better if it’s the latter, maybe.
Oh, btw, you can exceed those design limits within six miles of port Townsend in the right conditions.
Cheers, Martyn Adams
Re: R2AK - Structural Failures - A Cause for Concern?
From: KEVIN GRICE Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 04:31:55 AEST
See the descriptions on what failed in Chad's note below from the Team Tres Equis facebook page. Although you should feel free to reach out to Chad the owner via email and see if he is willing to share more detail. We also should ask all the US Corsair dealers to be transparent in what they know of the status and investigation. In my personal experience, Corsair is not responsive unless pushed and then will go out of their way to deny responsibility - my former Pulse 600 with gel coat blisters and deck delamination are a prime example. I didn't hear anything - despite numerous letters and contact efforts until I involved the Boat US consumer affairs representative. The Corsair Factory Rep then made up a story that I had purchased a used boat that was kept on a mooring without bottom paint!, this despite the fact the boat was purchased new and was never stored in the water. $8000 latter I had a repaired boat and a lingering distrust of Corsair. If it was a US company I would have sued but pursuing litigation in Vietnam would not likely be worth the effort. Yes I did purchase another Corsair, but you can be sure I'm looking for any evidence of cracks/delam well within the 5 year hull warranty. I'm watching my rudder cassette in particular given the Tres Equis experience.
The boat fell apart under normal conditions on its fifth day on the water and is not fixable. The transverse bulkhead cracked on the starboard side on day two which required a field repair before starting stage two. The rudder cassette cracked about 4.5 inches under no load. The areas around where the armas attach were moving and water started penetrating the hull on both port and starboard… this indicated a catastrophic failure was in the near future so we turned around. Of 5 total days on the water 10 hours were in 20-25kts. About an hour cumulative was closer to 30kts and the rest was less than 20. My email is ctwilson@cwilsonlaw.com
Kevin C760 Icarus
Re: R2AK - Structural Failures - A Cause for Concern?
From: Jeff Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 13:32:00 AEST
Ouch... Older Boat. Ruf Duck is deeply wounded.
I think that the starboard ring frame/lower strut mount is a pretty well known spot to keep an eye on. Maybe the reason we did not break Ruf Duck at that location this year is that we already did it a few years back. We beefed it up and have not had any trouble since. Maybe some people will not get this analogy... but if you ever 4 wheeled seriously you know that you do not buy a Jeep off the showroom floor and expect to do serious rock crawling or run through the Rubicon Trail (dating myself... but this is prior to their "trail rated" system... and even at that you would probably do some stuff). You could run that stock unit through the mill.. and maybe you get lucky... but you typically do things to make your ride more capable before you go. Most F boats or Corsairs are just that... off the show room floor. The only F boat that I am aware of that was advertised as something of an off shore (ie stronger) boat was the F33 (feel free to point me to text that corrects me). Uber envelope pushers like Cheeky Monkey (While it was in BC I think) went so far as to completely fill the cutout to the V berth in order to strengthen this area.
I am not saying that there was not something wrong with the laminate that caused the issues being discussed. I saw the crack in Victoria... and sailed the same leg from PT. It was a mild day and nothing that should have caused an issue to a properly set up stock boat that had no prior issues.
I will say that if I saw this same problem developing... I probably would have bailed on the race. After all... I had been there the year before and had seen a few things...
Jeff
Team Ruf Duck
Corsair 880 or Dragonfly 28 for solo ocean passages? https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/corsair-880-or-dragonfly-28-for-solo-ocean-passages.242165/
According to Francois Perus (880 designer) the 880 uses the same laminate schedule as Corsair’s other production models so presumably it would have a similar level of robustness, even if not intended to cross an ocean. The main thing I’d be concerned about with crossing an ocean with a production Corsair boat is the tendency seen in a few models for the forward bulkheads adjacent to the lower folding struts to delaminate from the main hull under heavier conditions. It can be fixed/reinforced by tabbing to the hull, but not in the middle of an ocean! Both the Corsair 880 and Dragonfly 28 have CE ratings of (B) for sailing within 200 NM of shore, so you might not be able to get insurance for either for crossing an ocean.
The question for me is the design limits for the Corsair 880. If it is rated to 200 miles offshore, good but that does not mean it is structurally designed to sail/race through EG 50 knot winds in big seas. Clearer messages in marketing of products would help. Reality is conditions may have been to much for the tri, the tri may have hit things, there may have been build issues or the design limits were reached. Further understanding from Corsair will help us understand.
First jpeg is F 27 in the Round Island Race, rest of the jpegs are of the Corsair 880. Page 181 of this thread does a fuller analysis of the Corsair 880.
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