Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

[Cheesy]

Another one of those more complex, fiddly solutions in search of a problem.

Dont be silly, we just need to do a bit of genetic engineering, maybe opposable big toes or a third arm

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils!--the Wing

Scuttlebutt interview with gulari:

THE ROLLER COASTER LIFE OF A DEVELOPMENT CLASS - PART 2
Rohan Veal from Australia electrified the sailing world in 2005 when he
became the first person to win an International Moth World Championship on
hydrofoils, taking first place in eight straight races. For a class rooted
in development, this was a game changer. Interest in the class has been sky
high ever since, and now possibly faces its next game changer: a wing sail.
We have seen them in the Little America's Cup on the C Class catamarans, and
earlier this year on the U.S. entry that defeated the Swiss in the 33rd
America's Cup. But now the Moth? Explaining this new reality is American
Bora Gulari, 2009 Moth World Champion:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* What made you think a wing on the Moth was realistic?
BORA GULARI: The Moth class is open and has always been an experimental
class. When the foils were introduced to the class they were far more out in
left field. Let's not forget, wings have been around for 30+ years. After
seeing BMW Oracle pooch the start of the first race of the America's Cup in
February, but then sail up, over and around Alinghi, we all wanted one at
that very moment!

* Who have you collaborated with to develop your rig?

BORA GULARI: We have quite the wing team! It was designed by Canadians Steve
Killing and Magnus Clarke, and built by Rob Paterson and Rossi Milev at
Object 2 Skiffworks in Toronto with a bit of help from George Peet, Anthony
Kotoun, Chris Rast and Andrew McCorquodale. This was Fred Eaton's Little
America's Cup winning combo of designers and builders. He got it right so we
copied!

* Is the wing destined to be a game changer for the class?

BORA GULARI: Time will tell, but there is nothing to be afraid of! Believe
it or not, it is easier to rig, derig and easier to sail. If a wing is going
to work in any class besides the C Class it would be the Moth.

* How has the class been dealing with the wing?

BORA GULARI: There is no current rule that addresses the wing. In August,
the International Moth Class Association (IMCA) published an interpretation
of the current class rules and their application to solid wing sails. More
recently, the IMCA presented some questions about our wing design, to which
we just submitted a response. The IMCA Executive Committee is working hard
to make sure the road is clear for the 2011 Worlds in Belmont, Australia
(Jan. 8-14).

* Seems like this wing project could be a huge distraction for you at the
Worlds.

BORA GULARI: Maybe, but the class ethos is to develop and produce faster
boats within the rules. This is what I believe we have done, and I gain as
much satisfaction in this aspect of the class as I do competing on the
water. -- Read on (Part 1 included):http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/10/1201#P2

NOTE: The entry list for the Zhik 2011 International Moth World Championship
is up to 112 participants as of today. -- http://www.mothworlds.org/belmont

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

The problem appears to be that Bora's wing( and maybe others) is three element-May's was two element and (I believe) and was already declared legal. I remember the sometimes vicious discussion(complete with outright lies and name calling) on the original Moth forum when hydrofoils were first being discussed. The "developers" won that battle and it has been great for the Moth Class. Now the 2 or 3 element wing
fight may involve the future of ANY wings in th Moth class. Anti-developers are at it again-in the greatest development class ever:

From "The Moth Chronicles": http://mothchronicles.blogspot.com/2010/12/speed-of-sound-of-loneliness.html

SUNDAY, DECEMBER 12, 2010

The Speed of the Sound of Loneliness

Why do so many multiple World Champions seem to get grumpy and leave Mothing? Boredom perhaps. Or maybe it's that they hate losing so much they can't stomach the fact that someone may come up with something on the design side that no amount of good sailing can overcome.

The pop psychologist in me attibutes this phenomenon to the fact that it must take a hell of a lot of effort to win a Worlds, and even more to win multiple times. So the thought of losing on the design side, rather than the sailing side, starts to seem like an unreasonable chance to take, and even more so if you are involved with building or selling a particular design.

It brings me back to the Fall of 2001, when I had some cash and looked at buying a Hungry Tiger from Mark Thorpe. We chatted back and forth a bit, but then 9/11 happened and it got put on the back burner. I do however recall it seemed obvious to both of us that two foils on the midline was the most likely way forward. He clearly saw the light at the end of the tunnel...and decided it was a freight train.

I wasn't privy to much of the discussion surrounding the adoption of hydrofoils, but there was a lot of discussion back and forth about whether to allow them - for the usual reasons: expense, practicality, decimating the fleet by putting it out of reach of mere mortals, etc. We all know where that led: foilers everywhere, but no more Hungry Tigers (apart from Scott's). The dominant class boatbuilder and three time World Champ, who even beat a foiling Rohan with a lowrider Hungry Tiger in Les Sable d'Olonne, decided he wasn't playing the foiling game. I have to give him credit for going out on a high note.

Rohan then went on to win in 2005 and 2007, affiliated with Bladerider in the latter event. Again not privy to any details, but the end of that story was basically that Bladerider was outclassed on the design side, and is no more. You'd think someone like Rohan would just move on to a Mach 2 and keep sailing, right? But after all that went on, and being so immersed in Mothing for so long, one can hardly blame him for wanting to do something else. Another boat and another multiple World champ sidelined by better hardware.

Fast forward to 2010 and history seems to be repeating itself: a multiple World champ is marketing the dominant boat, and yet another round of technical development threatens to knock it, and the Champ, off their perch. Having witnessed the rise and fall of Rohan on mainly technical grounds, and Thorpe before him, the best stragegery (to quote our 42nd President) for a sitting Champ and manufacturer rep is apparently to make it as hard for anything faster to get to the starting line as possible. Which is relatively easy to do when you sit on the Class Executive Committee.

Thusfar, we've seen the class Constitution invoked against the class rule, basically arguing that the first rule defining the class violates its own Constitution. This seems like kind of a scorched earth approach to winning, but whatever. Not entirely convincing in any event. This argument having failed, the discussion has shifted to Rule 4.2, and the responsibility of the measurer to report "anything which he may consider to be unusual or to depart from the intended nature of the boat, or to be against the general interest of the class." The Rule states further that "a certificate may be refused, even if the specific requirements of the class are satisfied." Unfortunately, the decision regarding whether to refuse a Certificate to a wing hinges upon a tricky, somewhat subjective judgment by the Exec: Are wings against the general interest of the class?

Suffice it to say the positions of interested parties are predictable on this point: boat manufacturers feel that wings are against the general interest of the class, pretty much, and the people building wings obviously feel that they are squarely within the general Class interest. Both factions have vested interests in the outcome. Which is, well, interesting, as the very next Rule, 4.3, quite presciently states the following:


A measurer shall not measure a boat, spars or equipment owned, designed or built by themselves, or in which they are an interested party or have a vested interest.

So, if I follow the news properly, measurers are banned from measuring equipment they have an interest in, but Exec members are allowed to rule on how the measurement rules should apply to equipment that THEY have a vested interest in suppressing or promoting? Perhaps the Class should pass a rule mandating Exec members recuse themselves from debates in which they have a vested interest.

Impressively, the Exec is off to a good start: Bora has been booted from the Exec on grounds of vested interest. But now that the precedent has been set, it hardly seems reasonable to allow manufacturer representatives with equally vested, but opposite interests to remain. Let the standard be applied uniformly.
POSTED BY KARL AT 11:48 PM

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! AMAC rumor

From DA today:


Bora:
All I know is AMAC has designed a wide mast which will support a soft sail. No idea if its built or waiting for the IMCA/ISAF decision. No idea how wide it is or if it will be offered later as a Mach 2 option. It would seem prudent to test it in the regatta first anyway.

Phil SMoth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

Excellent comments by atg on DA:


Gio - precisely. We simply cannot allow a precedent to be set whereby a development is banned on shaky pretenses before even being allowed to compete. If this is allowed, we hardly deserve to be called a Development Class any longer.

Cookie - I don't doubt your willingness or ability to tool up for building wings, or Ellway's ability to design a good one. Or the abilities of Amac et al in the same arena, or Lennon, or Adam, or anyone else. But the process has to be innovate, build, sail and then allow the Class to respond - not innovate, build, and have the Exec ban your device on a highly debatable measurement pretext before you ever get to the water.

I don't have a dog in this wing fight. I like my soft sails just fine, frankly. If the Class votes to ban them after Belmont, I won't be upset. But to do so at this stage of the game just makes a farce of the whole development process, and the Class by extension. If we cannot agree that development is an inherent part of Mothing, is desirable, and is to be encouraged, then something has gone very wrong indeed.

Cookie I beg to differ on the two sail argument; I think this is simply a case of a rule being applied to a situation it could not possibly anticipate.

Finally, though this post was targeted at certain arguments, this was in large part to demonstrate that the Exec and its members need to be above reproach in their statements and decisions, as the appearance of impropriety can be just as damaging as the real thing.

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

Comments from Phil S on DA about The Wing crisis:

Posted Today, 09:25 PM

Some history:
Until 2004 the class rules used the measurement manual to which Fredo refers. The reference was deleted as part of the rewrite when we went to a more precise sail area measurement.
Nothing was changed in the parts of the rule which bans more than one sail or which specifies mast length max (6.25m) and luff length max (5.185m).

I debated the deletion of the reference to the ISAF manual with the then exec but at that stage ISAF had not posted it and old paper IYRU marked copies were all we had. We also looked at implications of big masts and other things which they deemed were not needing attention. I ceased being a measurer and took on secretary role as I could not get close to winning an argument.

Adam revealed his wing in July 2010. The remaining exec (National presidents plus IMCA pres and sec but excluding Adam as IMCA measurer with vested interest) discussed a rule interpretation and released it before the Euros in August. Among other things it deemed the front element a mast and the aft one a sail and deemed 3 element rigs to have two sails and so were not legal.

After a lot of for and against argument on blogs and websites they decided in November that the August interpretation was invalid because it was not approved by ISAF. I do not know if it was asked.

The arguments against wings being measured to current rules included:
* The two or three element wings comprise more than one sail
* The front element if its declared a mast can be 6.25m long can gain considerable aspect ratio advantage over conventional rigs
* The aft element if declared the sail is too small to fit on all the national letters and sail numbers required.

This is separate to the philosphical question as to whether they are good for the class.

So in November a new process started where the 4 mothies with wings or designs were asked to write submissions justifying why they should measure in. These are now under consideration by the exec and an ISAF measurement committee. We all await a decision, but in the mean time at least two planned builds were cancelled due to uncertainty, and its easy for people to aassume that this might well have been the intention.

A lot of boats are undergoing measurement now prior to the WC. Bora's wings arrive this week and need to be measured but the Aust measurer still has no IMCA guidlines to follow and has been told he can not make his own interpretaions.

Just 3 weeks for the class to sort out the mess we have created. Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

From Scuttlebutt tonight:


WHEN DEVELOPMENT AND CLASS RULES MEET
A development class is not for the meek, and the development class that is
getting all the publicity these days in the International Moth. When Rohan
Veal from Australia electrified the sailing world in 2005 when he became the
first person to win an International Moth World Championship on hydrofoils,
it required everyone to either add foils to their boat or get beat by those
that did. This is what development classes do. They develop.

The list of Moth class rules is short, limiting little more than hull length
and width and sail area. They begin by stating their intention "is to give
the designer and builder the fullest liberty in design and construction,
within these rules to develop and produce faster boats." And while the idea
is to stretch the boundaries for better boat speed, this reality is not
always well received.

The 2011 International Moth World Championship is next month in Belmont,
Australia (Jan. 8-14), and the class Executive Committee is hurriedly trying
to navigate the next big development: wing sails. Since Simon Payne (GBR)
won the 2010 Worlds in March, which followed the domination of a wing sail
at the 33rd America's Cup, factions in the class went into the garage to
make their own wing. And now they are coming out.

The problem is threefold. First, the class rules are not well suited to the
wing, so interpretations must be made. The sticking point is that the rules
permit one mast and one sail, and the naysayers find that all the flaps and
elements amid the wing are over the limit. There is concern among the sail
manufacturers who fear their livelihood is in danger, and are seeking to
halt this development as not being in the "general interest of the class".
Then there are all the soft sail competitors who fear their kit will not be
sufficient at the 2011 Worlds. And all this uproar comes before the wing
sails have entered a race.

As Class president Mark Robinson (SIN) noted during the 2010 Annual General
Meeting in March, "We've got a healthy class. The fleet is still on an
up-turn, but the trick is to maintain this. The class philosophy is that as
a development class just about anything goes. If it works, and the class
members like it, it will be embraced, if not it may be banned. Thus
'retrospective legislation' is the philosophy. We also have to be careful
how many revolutions we have within the class in a given period to ensure
sustained growth. Hydrofoils have been a great success, but incurred a
significant cost increase upon their introduction, so we have to be careful
how many major revolutions we have, versus constant evolution."

So will the class embrace the wing, or will self-interest kill it first? The
clock is ticking, and the ethos of the class is set to be tested. Additional
reports on Scuttleblog: http://tinyurl.com/Scuttleblog-121310

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

atg on DA:

Nige AFAIK you are correct. The upshot is that a) boats are subject to remeasurement at a regatta, b ) the measurer is required to report anomalous findings to the Certification Authority (one presumes it would be the Exec at a Worlds event), and c) that the Exec could decide to not issue a Certificate for the boat as a result. Which would prevent the wing from competing, effectively banning it for the event. True, a rule could subsequently be passed allowing the same wing. But that really sets a poor precedent for anyone amped up enough to build something like a wing and ship it halfway 'round the world, don't you think? To my mind, unless something is explicitly banned, it should be permitted, on the premise that this is a DEVELOPMENT class and new ideas should be encouraged. Wings are not explicitly prohibited by our current rules. Trying to label them as some kind of sloop rig is a really big stretch in my view, though reasonable people may disagree on this point. Which is precisely why we should not issue interpretations effectively banning wings that are already built. In any event the IMCA interpretation has been invalidated as ISAF was apparently not consulted.

Sailing in a development class and then working to limit development seems like evidence of some kind of diagnosable thought disorder. Like Dan I am skeptical that the wing may actually not win the regatta, but I would like to see the test. As the French say, that's why they race the race. Let the question be settled on the water. Then let everyone vote after they have seen the thing perform and can form an educated opinion. I think Rohan was the only one on foils in France in 2003; nobody tried to get the exec to issue a ruling throwing him out that I know of. Same with Burvill. One idea was subsequently banned, the other not. Why should we start preemptively "banning" new devices now?

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

Phil S on DA:

Posted Today, 01:07 AM

Our rules are more complicated than they need to be. But the anti wing lobby want to write some more.

We do not really need several existing rules any more:
1. The one sail rule is not needed. No one will make a sloop, they have not done it in ACats since 1968 (I know because I did it)Its only now being used as a tool for other aims.
2. We do not need the no air gap rule to ban catamarans, hollow bottom scows and trifoilers, our present boats are faster already.
3. We do not need the rule about sheeting from the hull, to ban sailboard rigs. I doubt any sailboard with only 8sqm could keep up now. We are close to Formula speed and they use 10 or 12 sqm
4. We need to simplify the luff length and mast height rules because they are somewhat inconsistant. All we need is a max dimension to top of the rig either from the keel (6.3m) or from the bottom of the foils (7.3m)
5. But mostly we need to clear up all the bits in the measurement manual which tells you precicely how to measure a KA sail but not how to measure something different. Not an odd shapes sail, not a wing mast and not a wing rig. The simplest method of doing this is to reintroduce the ISAF manual as the standard for moth measuring.

None of this can be done before Belmont, but we need to have a big clean up in 2011. Adam May actually began the dsicussion process in about September, but its been steamrolled by the anti wing loby into a fight over whether Bora can use his wing at the worlds.

Regardless of the outcome of the present fiaso, we all need to get back on track and sort out just what a moth is going to limited to, and how it can be easilly measured and registered without all this difference of opinion and interpretation. Its not that hard. The class deserves more respect, its an old lady. Lets sort it out and get it right in 2011. Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

From Scuttlebutt-letters to the editor tonight:


* From Julian Bethwaite, Sydney Australia:
The International Moth class, a development class, is deliberating on
possibly restricting development in their class. Though the particular
question at issue isn't important per say, the issue is wing masts.

For what it is worth, it matters not what the rules are, or whose set of
rules you use because the perception of the Moth class has been one that I
believe a great number of sailors who have never sailed a Moth aspire to.
The Moth is in a rarefied field, along with the A class, C class,
International Canoes and a class dear to my heart, which used to belong to
your group, but has dropped out the bottom, - the 18teen.

And this is my point: What the class executive committee is about to do is
make a decision that has very long term effects and will position the Moth
class as either the utopia that we all aspire to, or just another class.

In 1996-7 a gentleman called Antony James Reynolds made what was effectively
a personal attack on me, which set a course of demise of the 18teen to where
it is today rather than where it could have been.

Sorry, it's not a $$$ thing as an I14 is five times the cost of a 49er and
they are doing very well, thank you very much. And obsolescence does not cut
it either. Moths have an ethos of evolution. If you kill that, you kill the
class.

While the JJ Giltinan for the 18teen is still a very worthy trophy to win,
there simply are no new Bruce Farr's, Ben Lexan's, Iain Murray or dare I say
Julian Bethwaite's coming from what used to be called "the Hot House
Flowers" of the sailing world.

We now are looking at the Mac's and the Bora's of this world along with the
Rohan Veal's & Fred Eaton's to show us the future. Hopefully!

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

Magnus Clarke from DA:

#1----Posted Today, 08:10 AM

I still haven't seen any good arguments for banning THE wing yet, or wings in general.

Any naysayers prepared to step up and give some good reasons it should be banned? I think this currently falls into two categories, one, being technical, what is it about the O2 wings that does not cut the mustard right now. Two, why should they be banned, "for the sake of the class"?

Finally, yes I do have some skin in the game, no, I am not a moth guy, but yes, I and others worked pretty hard to create wing or set of wings for Bora's team, to the best of our abilities, within our reading of the rule and the interpretaions that were available when the work was begun.

From my perspective, it would be ashame if the class were to reverse course on a ruling or interpretation they already made. If they did not have the authority to make it, they should not have published it. As they have published it, they should own that and let anything that fits within it to race.
I cut it twice and it's still too short

---------------------
#2

Fair enough, as a matter of practicality and likely commercial viability, that is a good thing to address. That having been said, I don't see a literal "box rule" like the AC72 has, in the moth rules.

Suffice to say, there are details in the works to address making it smaller at the end of the sailing day and for shipping.

To your other point, there are a lot of people doing mothing on the cheap, there are also some who throw more resources at it as in any class. Wings are not cheap, ut they are getting a lot cheaper a lot faster then I might haver thought possible even a few years ago. If you are to kill the development, you kill the process of optimization, optimization of speed, convenience, construction, all of it.

A few brave souls blazed a path for foils under many similar protests of cost, storage, durability, outclassing older boats etc etc. This seems like the same shoe on the same foot, it even smells the same.
I cut it twice and it's still too short

 

[Doug Lord]

This seems like a rotten thing to happen-even to gulari:

nige, on 15 December 2010 - 10:07 AM, said:

"Everyone seems to be up in arms about the impending banning of wings - can someone show me a document or conversation that shows its likely that wings will be banned before an AGM???

I dont get where this is coming from.

I dont believe its something the exec can or will do."



Technologica said:

"It comes from the fact that Bora is trying to get his wing measured pre event and the Australian measurer has been told NOT to measure it. So no measurement = banned pre event".
My blog
My moth podcast: www.mothcast.net
Search the mothosphere: www.mothosphere.com

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

from Phil S on DA:

Posted Today, 03:45 PM

Nige:
This is part of the email sent by the IMCA exec asking all the wing owners/builders to justify how their designs are complient to the current rules:

"...............the IMCA Executive will discuss the surrounding issues in consultation with ISAF and work out a way forward which may include:

* Declaring one or all illegal under current rules, including withdrawal of associated measurement certificates (if any)

* Declaring one or all legal under the current rules

* Asking the IMCA Council of Presidents to vote on an emergency rule change (with subsequent or concurrent ISAF approval), OR

* Take no action"

We are all awaiting the verdict.

Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

Phil S on DA again: Damn good comments!

Posted Today, 03:34 PM

Andy,
Same thing happenned with Burville's trifoiler in 2000. As I remember we handled that by interpretting the air gap rule as inclusing the foils, so the concept was banned and I think without reference to ISAF on that occasion.

Shortly after we still had a strong anti foil lobby in Aust and GBR. I moved a put up or shut up motion to introduce a one foil rule copied from the I14s. It was lost on the first local vote, and went no further. Consequently a few people left the class and hundreds more have since joined.

I think the current paranoia is miss guided. The world will be keen on wings once the first AC45s are launched. The moth class with wings will be a place for trial of wacky new ideas by people aspiring to AC. Surely other boats will join in and if we do not accept the challenge we will lose our dominant position. The moth is the perfect platform for such development, because the standard is already high and because the relative costs of building are so small compared with bigger boats. We are an inventive lot and we will overcome the perceived transport and storage problems by clever design, dismanleable hinges and folding panels together. Even so a fully assembled wing is still smaller than an ACat platform or an FD hull.

No matter what the class decides before or after Belmont I intend to build a wing. I have been toying with it for a few years and now have a design almost complete. It will be different to the existing wings. It be one element, no gaps and so will measure as a sail. It will be mostly foam around an old mast and will cost me about $300 in materials. It will also come apart into two 2.6m long panels which will fold up to fit under the moth on my trailer.

Lets just get on with it.
Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

AMATI(Paul Scott) on DA-more excellent comments:

Posted Today, 10:37 PM

Phil S points out the wing's most pernicious aspect. It's most likely to be cheaper than a sail.

And while I'm ranting, since Windsurfers were messing around with foils 20 years ago, who's to say what would have happened if Moths had gone the Windsurfing Way? The stayed mast route with wings would have remained as an option, and somebody would have messed around with it. And since you could say that the Windsurfing world has had influence with camber inducers, etc., in some repects the influence is there. You can, I believe, argue effectively that the skinny Moth hull is an extension of distance speedboard design.

As corrupt as the AC industry induced wing technology may seem, it will be good for Mothing. Because you have to believe that there is something True, Noble, and Enduring about the Moth class. It will endure, because of it's scale and freedom of the class, and most important, the Endurance of Those who Understand.

An ex Mothie.


"It is not uncommon to charge the difference between promise and performance, between profession and reality, upon deep design and studied deceit; but the truth is, that there is very little hypocrisy in the world."

Samuel Johnson, 'The Idler' (1758-60), 27

Skin grows thinner. Age creeps closer.