Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    1 person likes this.
  2. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    Doug, sorry to say this, but the fact that no one thus far has even made a comment to what you believe is a very significant event shows an indication of the commercial potential of a small foiling yacht. ;)
     
  3. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Sorry?

    Don't be sorry, Frosh! The event I described is simply a milestone and didn't really require any comment. High speed foiling is only a small part of the foiling experience-taking off in light air, jumping, course racing etc. will be much more the purvue of the Peoples Foiler than top end speed.
    PS-for a better measure of the interest in foiling look at the Foiler Design thread and certain other threads.
    ==========================
    Some further discusion:
    24.6knot Moths - Sailing Anarchy Forums
    Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33438
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2006
  4. Rick Loheed
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    Rick Loheed Junior Member

    Sorry

    Agreed- foiling for some reason has been long overdue in catching on- people are suspicious of what they do not understand well.

    Hovercraft are also in a similar state- including surface effect ships in the U.S. Overseas, it is embraced far more widely, check out ;

    http://www.knmskjold.org/english/index.html

    Captain John Vonli, the first captain of the Skjold, was in our office yesterday.

    The 'Skjold', ('Shield' in Norwegian) came to the U.S. for a PR mission- unfortunately they arrived in New York on 9/11....very bad luck indeed. When they came up the Potomac going to D.C., we were out there to great them. On the return, we flew our hydrofoil testcraft along side, before they were finished and departed at about 58 Knots or so.......

    'Popularity' is not a valid nor good measure of a boats real merit.
     
  5. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    Foiling overdue?

    Merit is a completely subjective concept. A foiling small yacht that also can make controlled jumps to Doug Lord has possibly the highest measure of merit that is possible to contemplate. To my wife it means absolutely squat, as it probably does to 99.9% of the general population. Who is to say that Doug's or Rick's view has any more validity than that of the aforementioned 99.9% ?
    My point is like hovercrafts to the powerboat community, foiling small yachts will certainly remain as an important practical reality to only a very small proportion of yachties. Hence my comments regarding the commercial potential! These days much more than a generation ago most people want to just "plug it in" and go in no more than 10 minutes. Kite surfing acheives this in spades and whats more, you can put the kit under your arm and then stick it inside the average car, hence its overwhelming popularity. :)
     
  6. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    Doug, any idea on a Moth's potential top end speed? I once read somewhere that a few people believe 40+ kts to be possible.
     
  7. DSmith
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    DSmith Junior Member

    Longshot

    The fastest foiler over the official 500m was Longshot designed by Greg Ketterman. Its top speed was about 43.5 knots. It basically hit a wall at this speed because of cavitation. It could do 40+ knots in 20 knots of wind but couldn't push through the wall even with the wind at 30+ knots.

    Most of the other speed record chasers are probably having problems with this "wall". It just seems to be at a slightly higher speed for the windsurfers.
     
  8. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    "foiling for some reason has been long overdue in catching on- people are suspicious of what they do not understand well."

    Not necessarily, Rick. Some of us just put different values on different things. Some people may like a speedy, silently efficient (over 8 knots) foiler; others prefer a cheap, tough, simple boat that's low to the water.

    Foiling must not be utterly addictive because one or two of the foiling Moth pioneers are currently looking to get OUT of the class. Considering their track record (of innovation and national and world championship wins) it cannot be lack of skill or innovation.

    It's obvious when you look at the boats that people are racing, and the classes that are growing, that pure speed is just NOT that important to sailors - particularly when most people in the world sail in light airs where foilers remain slower than conventional boats.

    People who are not sold on foilers include many leading minds in cat and skiff design. These people are not suspicious minds.

    This is NOT (repeat NOT 10,000 times) saying that foiling is not great, I'd get one if there was a cheap one around and somewhere to put it. I would like to experiment with a foiling windsurfer, just not enough to spend $$$$$ or hours on foils.

    It's just replying to the assumption that anyone who is not 100% sold on the idea is ignorant, scared, stuck in the mud, or suspicious.
     
  9. Rick Loheed
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    Rick Loheed Junior Member

    You actually won't get an argument about the joys of other types from me- first I am an E-scow sailor, have sailed Finns and Lasers and Stars and a variety of cruising boats. I definately enjoy how the E boat sails as probably one of the best. I have sailed the rental cats in the Swan river in Perth as well, and I enjoyed that too, though the shallow draft ally rudders were a bit weak on steering capabilty. My McAlpine-Downy designed Dingo Cat was quite wierd to sail too. but I also have a 24 ft C&C I enjoy, along with an 18 ft runabout we fish in and the canoe I love to sail etc.....

    The frustration I feel, which I have to deal with and maybe should have worded differently, comes from watching good ideas panned and bad ideas often accepted during a career of 16 years in the AMV field, Often based on the reviewer's 'gut feel' or 'general public acceptance', so I have a tendency to defend the foils and air cushion vessels of the world because the well designed ones I find very worthy.

    And I can fully understand why folding a kite into a trunk is a convenient thing too- I used to hang glide quite a bit and smaller is good for transport.
     
  10. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Ct 249

    "People who are not sold on foilers include many leading minds in cat and skiff design. These people are not suspicious minds". What is the definition of "sold"? Last I read on SA under the C Class("Perth in 2007", I think) thread many of the leading minds of C class design(Steve Clark, an Australian team and the Canadian team) have been or are investigating foils for use in that class. Other "leading minds" in multihull design including Rob Denney are also actively pursuing foil designs.
    One of the "leading minds" in skiff design must be Julian Bethwaite and he has said(if I remember correctly) that he is considering foils on his "Maxi Skiff" as has Sean Langman on his "Maxi Skiff". The Out 95 team has said that they are pursuing foils on their 30' keelboat.
    This thread started out celebrating the amazing performance of one particular foiler Moth-24.6 knots-a milestone of historic proportions for an 11' dinghy with 85 sq. ft. of SA. But when you look at the state of monofoiling realistically this new way to sail really only began in 1999 when the first bi-foil Moth ever to foil took off. This is a sport in it's INFANCY; and while the Moth is the undisputed pioneer in two foil race winning monofoiling it is NOT the only way to go and has serious drawbacks from the perspective of appealing to a wider group of people-non retractable boards, no buoyancy pods. There are new Peoples Foiler wanabe's already sailing and others under development that will,more than likely, transform the Moth phenomenon into a very popular form of recreational sailing. David Luggs pioneering I14 effort -the first two person two foil monofoiler-showed that the Moth isn't the only type of bi-foil monofoiler possible. Foils are actively being researched in applications such as very small kite powered boats and in Windsurfers for early take off for the pure pleasure of flying-not for top end speed. In fact, the part of the allure of monofoiling is the relative simplicity and foiling in relatively light air. High speed pursuits will only be a fraction of those interested in flying for flying's sake. Foiling for too long has been synonomous in many minds with high speed or the desire for high speed. I think you'll see much more emphasis in Peoples Foilers on flying for the pure unadulterated fun of it-and taking off early is the key.
    Jumping , if it can be succesfully done on a boat like Eric's and my aeroSKIFF™ will introduce just another facet to foiling.
    As I tried to point out earlier foiling is being looked at in every area of sailing from small kiteboats to large keel boats, from small windsurfers to large trimarans- it is a way to sail that offers great promise and is an area of sailing where innovative thinking and taking a chance will lead to huge breakthrus in terms of new ways to sail and /or win races.
    ------------------
    Another comment from CT249:
    "Foiling must not be utterly addictive because one or two of the foiling Moth pioneers are currently looking to get OUT of the class. Considering their track record(of innovation and national and world championship wins) it cannot be a lack of skill or innovation".
    Let me try to understand this : are you saying that foiling must not be a lot of fun because one or two guys are leaving the Moth class? What about the dozens getting into the class because of foiling? New fleets and/or serious interest have sprung up all over the world in places like Italy and the US as a direct result of foiling. It seems to me that the Moth class has gotten more publicity in the last three years because of foiling than in the last ten before that combined.
    Could you be more specific about who you're referring to-I've had the pleasure of talking to several Moth pioneers and would like to ask these guys about their impressions of the foiling revolution in the Moth class- you can e-mail me at: lorsail@webtv.net
    ----------------
    At any rate, it should be clear to anyone who researches the Moth phenomenon that two foil monofoiling has only just begun ; there is lots of room for development and improvement-and lots of room for new boats that are easier to sail and that can be beach sailed with heavier crews both singlehanded and doublehanded. Ian Wards proposal a couple of years ago for a whole range of foiler classes is as valid now as it was then: you ain't seen nothin yet!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2006
  11. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    Doug, as someone said it very aptly on a different thread fairly recently, and directed to you, is foiling some new kind of religion that is going to overtake the Judeo-Christian tradition which has already around 5800 and 2000 years respectively of history behind it? :confused:
     
  12. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Re "Another comment from CT249:
    "Foiling must not be utterly addictive because one or two of the foiling Moth pioneers are currently looking to get OUT of the class. Considering their track record(of innovation and national and world championship wins) it cannot be a lack of skill or innovation".
    Let me try to understand this : are you saying that foiling must not be a lot of fun because one or two guys are leaving the Moth class?"

    Of course I'm not saying foiling is not a lot of fun. Read what I said; I said it's not "utterly addictive". As a matter of plain english that's not saying it's not fun.

    I'm not going to say who among the early foilers is thinking of getting out of the class, that's for them, but it takes very little working out. One has given detailed reasons in public. That is NOT saying foiling is not worthwhile, merely that it's not the only thing to think about.

    "What about the dozens getting into the class because of foiling? New fleets and/or serious interest have sprung up all over the world in places like Italy and the US as a direct result of foiling. It seems to me that the Moth class has gotten more publicity in the last three years because of foiling than in the last ten before that combined."

    Publicity does NOT equal popularity, that's a simple fact. I'm involved in parts of the sport that has had plenty of publicity and seen massive drop in the number of sailors. But if all that enormous publicity has created only a few dozen new sailors then obviously the concept is not the only way forward for sailing is it? By the way, where's the new US fleet?

    IF you actually READ my post properly you would also have seen that I wrote I was "NOT (repeat NOT 10,000 times) saying that foiling is not great."

    I SAID "I'd get one if there was a cheap one around and somewhere to put it."

    I SAID "I would like to experiment with a foiling windsurfer".

    If you think that's bagging foilers, then you must lack comprehension skills.

    Julian does NOT believe in the concept of a people's foiler, as he said to me in an interview in his office at WSC about 3 weeks ago.

    Sean may (or may not, i haven't seen him for a while) be into foils. Sean also sails old gaffers and loves Stars and Flying 15s. He respects those who choose to sail other classes. You don't seem to. It's the one-eyed approach that turns many people off.

    As of yesterday afternoon, I was asking a foiler Moth sailor (who is VERY happy with the experience.....he said the best analogy to first time on foils was to remember the first time you planed, and how much fun it was) when the next "try a foiler" day is, because I missed the last one.

    As I wrote quite clearly, I was "just replying to the assumption that anyone who is not 100% sold on the idea is ignorant, scared, stuck in the mud, or suspicious." That is NOT attacking the merits of the idea, just trying to say that not every sailor happens to want one. There are people who aren't sold on the Lasers, Canoes, windsurfers, cats and yachts I sail - good on 'em, let them sail what they like.

    Rick has been gracious and mature enough to explain what he meant, which is great.

    If it's all so damn all-fired incredibly much better than anything else, why aren't you foiling each weekend?
     
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  13. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Foiling

    I certainly don't think foiling is "..so damn all fired incredibly much better than anything else" !! I love sailing and have sailed gaff rigged Fish class boats thru to an 80' schooner, Thistles, Flying Dutchman,aeroSKIFF foiler, Rave foiler, Lightning, Windmill, windsurfer ,catamaran windsurfer, Hobies(14 & 16), an E scow, several small tri's , daysailers and others I can't think of at the moment --and they were all great fun!
    Foiling is loads of fun as well and most people have never tried one- either monofoiler or multifoiler-I've been lucky enough to try both and be able to be involved on a regular basis with design, testing and building of foilers. I'm working on a project now (besides my own foiler) with a well known windsurfer to develop a light air foiler. I do research on whats happening in foiling as much as I possibly can. Unfortunately, I can't find the article on Julian Bethwaites "maxi skiff" where I think he talks about foils for that boat. I'm disappointed to hear that he doesn't "believe in the concept of a Peoples Foiler"--he could contribute much!
    But, as I said earlier: many leading minds in skiff and fast sailboat design ARE looking at foils.
    This is a direct quote from Sean Langman(see the whole -very interesting text and pictures
    at the link below):
    "Certainly my new boat I intend to get the boat foiling, and our plan is now to build a 50 knot-breaking foiler which is a really interesting craft which Rohan Veal and I are working on along with Andy Dovell. From that experience I believe that even our 98 footer some day will be able to sail on foils. Really need to keep you posted on that one as I learn more about foils."
    IMPORTANT NOTE: this url does not lead directly to the article. Click below ,then click on "Innerview/Roundtable" , scroll down to 2005 and click on "Sean Langman"- sorry:
    Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/archives.htm Changed:11:42 PM on Thursday, December 8, 2005

    "Leading minds" I'd say- with exciting ideas-hope they work out. And I fervently hope that a Peoples Foiler will be developed so that the excitement of two foil monofoiling can be shared by as many people as possible.
     
  14. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    50 Knot Foiler

    More on the Langman/Dovell/ Veal plans for a 40' LOA 50 knot foiler:
    Rohan Veal - Home Page
    Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/home.html Changed:9:42 AM on Tuesday, April 25, 2006
     

  15. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    26.3 knots!

    Incredibly, Sam Pascoe in the UK using new Full Force elliptical planform foils has just done 26.3 knots in a foiler Moth! Guys, thats over 30 MPH!
    For an 11'(12.75' LOA) boat with 85 sq. ft. SA that is nothing short of absolutely fantastic.....

    See the blurb under "Sailing Shorts"-
    Scuttlebutt: Your Source for Daily Sailing News
    Address:http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/
     
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