Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

[cardsinplay]

Over at Sailing Anarchy, Former World Champion Mothie, Bora Gulari just posted this bit regarding the hilarious Doug Lord entry at the next Worlds in OZ, post:

[quote name='bgulari' timestamp='1289916645' post='3064213']
Our spies report that he has a 7m tall 5 element wing filled with helium. His hull has a DSS foil system along with the standard t foil for the added complexity. And according to the south florida moth measurer it is fully legal.

None of this might be true
[/quote]


You probably should have pretended this Worlds suggestion thing never happened, Doug. By trying to play it off, some think that it hurts you more than not, simply because the guys out there suspect that you have never had a sense of humor.

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils!--design and rules

Here is a link to a paper in Foiler Design on Moth performance:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/foiler-design-2447-65.html#post419343

And below is a pdf of the Moth Class interpretation of how the rules apply to solid wings:

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils!----stunt/design

Well, there is a new competitor listed for the Worlds-see #31:

http://www.mothworlds.org/belmont/competitors/entries/

But is it true?
---------

========================

No, it is horse manure started by certain juvenile members of the Moth Class. I don't have a Moth-and I wouldn't have one. I'm not going to the worlds.
Moths represent the begining of a revolution in sailboat design and the fastest sailboat under 20'. But foiler design is headed for foilers that are easy to sail , that are stable on and off foils, that don't cost $275 a pound and that don't have to be walked out to deep water because they don't have retractable foils or are too unstable to use retractable foils. The Moth has led the way in terms of performance but along the way has created "foiler" myths about beach launching ,stability ect. New kinds of multifoilers, new applications of foils like DSS and full flying monofoilers designed specifically to be easy to sail, easy to transport, affordable, stable and a blast to sail are the future.
Sorry that some were taken in by the juvenile stunt about the worlds-I will, however, be at the first world championship of the Peoples Foiler!

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils!----The Wing

Phil S on DA:

Posted Today, 05:09 PM

The grapevine now indicates there will be 6 wing rigs at the ZHIK Moth Worlds. Three different designs and concepts. Three diferernt designers. But none of them have yet been measured and signed off as moth legal, (assuming Adam has not signed off his own, and that it is coming for use by another GBR skipper), so just what will be used in the event still depends a bit on current discussions about rules and interpreations and consequenty how the Aust measurement team treat each design.
Apart from the opinions of those who would rather not have wings at all, Adam's wing seems to be argument free, Bora's small trailing edge flap or second element is raising some concern, and the Aust design which uses the max mast length is also ruffling feathers. Its not over yet.
Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils!----Belmont Worlds

Here is the "official" website: http://www.mothworlds.org/belmont/
Interesting question: will three element wings be legal???

 

[Blue Leader]

Doug-

You said, " Moths represent the begining of a revolution in sailboat design and the fastest sailboat under 20'."

Is this what you meant to say?

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils!

Doug-

You said, " Moths represent the begining of a revolution in sailboat design and the fastest sailboat under 20'."

Is this what you meant to say?

============
Yes-assuming that boards of either type are not boats. I think there is widespread concensus that while kiteboarding is sailing-kiteboards are not boats. Here is the Coast Guard position on sailboards.

USCG on the question:

Q: What is the difference between a "sailboat" and a "sailboard?"

A: While many sailboard manufacturers advertise their products as "sailboats," there are major differences between the two. A sailboat has a fixed mast that the operator does not need to hold up. The design of a sailboat is such that the operator and any passengers can sit down. A sailboard has a free fall system for the sail and mast. In order to sail a sailboard, the operator must stand up and hold up the mast. If a sailboard carries more than one person, it is designed so that each person operates a separate sail while standing on the board.

http://www.windvisions.com/USCGdefinition.html
===================================================
Even the officials at Weymouth Speed Week make the distintion between boards and boats:

In just 12 knots of wind Mirabaud did the top speed for "boats" of 23 knots-3 knots faster than the Moth! Congratulations, Thomas!!

Winning Boats Name Speed (kts) Prizes Awarded
1st Thomas Jundt 23.248 Dakine Luggage
2nd Katherine Knight 20.096 Dakine Rucksack (Moth)
3rd Torix Bennett 12.657 Dakine Kit Bag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0wb2pbxtPs&feature=player_embedded


http://www.speedsailing.com/2010Results.htm

http://www2.jundt.ch/blog/?p=394

======================
Case Closed

 

[CutOnce]

Doug-

You said, " Moths represent the begining of a revolution in sailboat design and the fastest sailboat under 20'."

Is this what you meant to say?

Pull up! Pull up Blue Leader!

Doug WANTS people to try to dispute these claims. He feeds off the conflict.

To him just because two boats share the same stretch of water for a few minutes, that makes things a "race" to Doug. If someone randomly reports on the Internet that "the Moth pulled ahead of the Tornado for a while" that is concrete indication a Moth is faster than a Tornado. Doug studiously ignores boards and kites as boats.

Terminology is equally quicksandy with Doug. One minute fastest means "the peak speed achieved on the most optimal point of sail in optimal conditions" next minute it means whoever was reported on the Internet to be faster on a particular stretch of water and day. Fastest does not mean fast in the Portsmouth rating sense of "by long term evaluation of accumulated results across a variety of conditions on legitimate race courses with race committees".

You aren't going to get anywhere disputing Doug's "facts". Once Doug has formed an opinion based on trusty Internet hearsay, in his mind it is a fact beyond dispute.

Save yourself the pointless grief of getting into arguments with Doug.

--
CutOnce

 

[Blue Leader]

CutOnce-

Mayday Mayday Mayday........ Thanks, but I can't, I'm going in!!!!! Send SAR.

Doug -

Go ask the Coast Guard what type of vessel a Kitesurfer or windsurfer is?

"From its inception in Paris in October 1907, the governing body for the sport of sailing was known as the International Yacht Racing Union. On 5 August 1996, the IYRU changed its name to the International Sailing Federation (ISAF)."......

The International Sailing Federation (as it is now called) is officially recognised by the International Olympic Committee as the governing authority for sailing world-wide. As such, ISAF is responsible for promotion of the sport internationally, managing sailing at the Olympic Games, developing the International Yacht Racing Rules and Regulations for all sailing competitions and the training of judges, umpires and other administrators, the development of the sport around the world, as well as representing sailors in all matters concerning the sport."

The International Kiteboarding Association is an International Class Association of the International Sailing Federation (ISAF).

"The World Sailing Speed Record Council was established by the International Yacht Racing Union (now renamed the International Sailing Federation) in 1972. The object was to provide impartial results for increasing numbers of claims to high speed sailing craft (on water: never on ice nor land!)."

55kts is no longer the speed limit and your class of boat no longer holds the record!!!

 

[Doug Lord]

CutOnce-

Mayday Mayday Mayday........ Thanks, but I can't, I'm going in!!!!! Send SAR.

Doug -

Go ask the Coast Guard what type of vessel a Kitesurfer or windsurfer is?

"From its inception in Paris in October 1907, the governing body for the sport of sailing was known as the International Yacht Racing Union. On 5 August 1996, the IYRU changed its name to the International Sailing Federation (ISAF)."......

The International Sailing Federation (as it is now called) is officially recognised by the International Olympic Committee as the governing authority for sailing world-wide. As such, ISAF is responsible for promotion of the sport internationally, managing sailing at the Olympic Games, developing the International Yacht Racing Rules and Regulations for all sailing competitions and the training of judges, umpires and other administrators, the development of the sport around the world, as well as representing sailors in all matters concerning the sport."

The International Kiteboarding Association is an International Class Association of the International Sailing Federation (ISAF).

"The World Sailing Speed Record Council was established by the International Yacht Racing Union (now renamed the International Sailing Federation) in 1972. The object was to provide impartial results for increasing numbers of claims to high speed sailing craft (on water: never on ice nor land!)."

55kts is no longer the speed limit and your class of boat no longer holds the record!!!

=================================
Hey, Blue Leader-why not start your own thread rather than hijack another thread-this is about Moths-not kites. Thanks.

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils- crash!

Excellent video with some of the best illustrations EVER of how a wand system can cause a Moth to crash. Remember, the wand has a shock cord holding it "against" the water. Well, the wand is supposed to act to raise the mainfoil flap when the wand is pulled forward by the shock cord. Only thing is, in some wave conditions, the boat will fly to the point the wand is clear of the water-when that happens the wand suddenly goes max forward raising the flap max up and-bingo- a crash or near crash as the main foil goes to max down because of max up flap. Virtually every crash you see here might be avoided with a manual main flap control system :

http://www.youtube.com/user/d882481#p/a/u/0/Gzkz6g_wI80
==============================
UPDATE: From Phil S on DA today-

Today, 09:32 PM

End of November now around the world and normal entries have closed with 112 moths registered.
If everyone turns up this will be the biggest Moth Worlds since the class became international in the 1960s.
Numbers:
AUS 77, USA 9, GBR 8, Sui 6, SWE 3, JAP 3, GER 2, NZL 2, IRE 1, SIN 1.

Late entries still expected should make a huge regatta. Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

 

[cardsinplay]

....Virtually every crash you see here might be avoided with a manual main flap control system:

Which will move the foiling Moth ever further away from the reach of the average recreational sailor due to the addition of more parts for the user to manipulate for a stable sailing mode.

I wonder what that would do to the sales figures for a boat that is already saddled with tiny numbers of users, a reputation for being fiddly, as well as difficult to sail and costing more than other recreational boats of this size?

 

[SteveMellet]

Doug, I don`t believe the Moth class rules prevent you from picking up a used moth, retrofitting your system, and showing us that it`s better. I`m not sure that I understand why it`s so important that the boat does not crash from time to time - the way I see it, this is part of the learning curve of making a moth go fast, and why someone sailing a moth first time out is very unlikely to win a championship.
I believe that what you`d like to acchieve involves a high-speed foiling moth with autopilot and beer cooler.
If you are learning to sail a beachcat with a spinnaker (or even without one), pitchpoles are going to be part of your learning experience. They can be minimised through design, but not completely removed from the experience, if you are learning the skills required to push the boat hard enough to race. Part of the skill acquired is on how to recognise the onset of the crash and take action to prevent this happening with sufficient reaction time. It becomes a skill required to sail the boat properly, and makes you a better sailor.
Likewise I`m sure the moth crashes can be anticipated as the boat climbs, and skipper reaction can save the crash. If this were not the case we`d see these things crashing all the time in the videos of the Euro champs etc, which is not the case.
I don`t believe there is going to be an easy to sail, easy to learn, foiling moth which just sails itself with no skipper input, while he breaks out the beers and passes oysters around to all on deck. Not without some serious computer equipment on board. But then, will it still be sailing ?

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils!

I don`t believe there is going to be an easy to sail, easy to learn, foiling moth ?

========================
No, that would be called a Peoples Foiler. The crashing problem is evident in certain conditions such as those in the video-the Euros didn't have those conditions very much. The fact is that this kind of thing can be 99% designed out of a foiler. The use of manual altitude control would prevent it 100% and would be faster around a course once the skipper had learned the system which would be difficult,not easy. But once the manual system becomes second nature, it is fun as hell. And fast...

 

[cardsinplay]

Another one of those more complex, fiddly solutions in search of a problem.