Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE

From DA and Phil S:

Posted Today, 05:21 PM

The wing issue in moths is far from over. We have voted only to allow Bora's wings to be used in the worlds regatta. This does nothing to progress if wings will be allowed in the future or how they will be measured. This will be debated and decided by the IMCA process into 2011.

This weeks decision has pleased many and displeased others, not just the people who think the wing will have an advantage in the regatta but also those who had announced plans to build other wings but were discouraged by the long on again, off again process of deciding if they could be used and just what was going to be allowed.

The class will survive, development will continue. The moth culture has survived.
Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

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It sure will be interesting to see if The Wing is superior to the most advanced soft sails ever used on a sailboat. It wasn't in the A Class but there may have been other issues there. I can't wait to follow the racing and see what happens!

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! The Wing

From Phil S on DA today:

Posted Today, 04:52 PM

Regardelss of all the arguments, personalities, and bull, there is still another step before the wings sail in the event. The three wings in Bora's Box, to be used by Bora, Bear and Chris Rast still have to be measured by whatever method ISAF has decided we will use and come out under the class limit of 8sqm.

ASIK Nathan has never worked on a wing, may have asked Object 2 about one but nothing else.

The event will have video coverage. We have a professional crew producing product during the event and something bigger after the event. Thierry Martinez will be recording the action also as well as many other media outlets.

Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

 

[Doug Lord]

From Phil S on DA today:

Posted Today, 04:36 AM

Some answers I hope:
1. The only media who have contacted us and then said they are not coming is Alan Block*, aparently becasue he could not get a sponsor to finance the trip. He also had some issues with out media conditions, the core of which was copied from the Perth International Regatta and the Sydney to Hobart.
2. There may be trackers but I am not up on all details.
3. We have not yet got word from ISAF and Adam as to how the wings will be measured. I understand Bora believes they are small enough to pass. They will be measured most likely on Wednesday next week.
4. If you have not read the blogs I have, then the goss is that the wings go well upwind but not so well downwind. This also applied to Adams wing back in July.
5. There is a lot to discuss about the future of wings in the class. It will not be finalised at the January AGM because a lot of IMCA members will not be there.
6. Most of all this is a sailing championship run by and for the members of the moth class. It is not a media circus but sponsors and media are a major part of something with such a wide interest world wide. Media is taking up a lot of the resources but is by no means what it is all about. This will be an excellent regatta run by a mix of skilled professionals and dedicated amateurs and featuring some of the best small boat sailors in the world. The winner will have fought hard and earned a worthy position is sailing history.

This thread has degenerated into something like that which got Doug Lord banned earlier in the year*.
I think I will in future post relevent regatta information on one of the other threads currently running. This thread now needs to die.

Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW
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*due to the same kind of BS from the bald headed ja****s and his "girl" friend. Throughout this whole "Wing Resistance" episode no one has been calmer, clearer or more well reasoned than Phil Stevenson-I salute him.

 

[CutOnce]

*due to the same kind of BS from the bald headed ******* and his "girl" friend. Throughout this whole "Wing Resistance" episode no one has been calmer, clearer or more well reasoned than Phil Stevenson-I salute him.

Doug:

If you salute Phil Stevo for his rational and calm approach ignoring the conflict, why don't you emulate him and skip the negativity towards Alan Block (Mr. Clean on S/A). Although you may be referring to Bora Gulari as Clean's "girl" friend, Bora has been nothing but cool, calm and reasonable throughout the whole episode - calling for an end to the nonsense, and perfectly willing to live with the rulings handed down by both ISAF and the IMCA. He just wants to race, although I'm sure he'd like to be able to use the wing he built in good faith to meet the rules in place at the time.

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[Doug Lord]

Doug:

If you salute Phil Stevo for his rational and calm approach ignoring the conflict, why don't you emulate him and skip the negativity towards Alan Block (Mr. Clean on S/A). Although you may be referring to Bora Gulari as Clean's "girl" friend, Bora has been nothing but cool, calm and reasonable throughout the whole episode - calling for an end to the nonsense, and perfectly willing to live with the rulings handed down by both ISAF and the IMCA. He just wants to race, although I'm sure he'd like to be able to use the wing he built in good faith to meet the rules in place at the time.

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Bistros(Bill)-no one on planet earth has done more to interfere with and hurt the on-going "Wing Resistance" discussion than "clean" as he did in the thread that led to my banning at SA(since reinstated). I'm proud that I stuck to the facts on that thread and stood up to the mob. He's as much of a journalist as you are.
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By the way, Phil did not ignore the conflict-in almost every instance he tried to shed light on what was happening.
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As to bora's wing: I'm glad he'll get to race with it -I think it is good for the class and good for sailing. But I'm still not convinced it will be faster upwind and downwind.

 

[CutOnce]

Bistros(Bill)-no one on planet earth has done more to interfere with and hurt the on-going "Wing Resistance" discussion than "clean" as he did in the thread that led to my banning at SA(since reinstated). I'm proud that I stuck to the facts on that thread and stood up to the mob. He's as much of a journalist as you are.

I am not nor ever have claimed to be a journalist. I was just trying to keep this forum polite and pleasant.

By the way, Phil did not ignore the conflict-in almost every instance he tried to shed light on what was happening.

Phil Stevo did not obviously take "sides" on the issue, he ignored the personal conflict and stuck to the facts - something I suggested you emulate.

As to bora's wing: I'm glad he'll get to race with it -I think it is good for the class and good for sailing. But I'm still not convinced it will be faster upwind and downwind.

Since you act in a role as a public information collector and disseminator ("journalist? might be the right word"), perhaps you could report facts, not your opinions as you accuse Alan Block. Bora Gulari's wing has NOT been approved for use yet - it has to be measured and deemed within the class measurement rules. There are some questions regarding luff length that have not been resolved yet, and Bora may have to modify his wing to meet those measurement restrictions - or sail with his current KA soft sail rig. The interesting thing ahead is that Phil Stevenson (or his son) MAY be measuring Bora's wing as official class measurer of the country hosting the Worlds. The IMCA has yet to clearly define how to measure the wing, as the ISAF definition of wing measurement appears not to apply.

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[Doug Lord]

Bora Gulari's wing has NOT been approved for use yet ---
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You're dead wrong:

From DA and Phil S:

Posted Today, 05:21 PM

The wing issue in moths is far from over. We have voted only to allow Bora's wings to be used in the worlds regatta. !

Of course it has to be measured just like all the soft sails-but it HAS been approved for use!

 

[CutOnce]

Dear IMCA Members,

Thank you for the prompt responses to your own national Presidents on the vote to amend the 2011 World Championships NOR and thus allow wingsails to be measured and compete; or not to amend the NOR.

The Presidents of all national associations have responded with the vote being 30 in favour of option 1 and 6 in favour of option 2.

We will therefore be proceeding with issuing an amendment to the NOR under the guidance of and with approval from ISAF. Chief Measurer Adam May is currently working with ISAF on the final text and I expect this to be released shortly.

Mark Robinson
President
International Moth Class Association

Straight from the horse's mouth. Wing sails (not Bora Gulari's specifically) can be MEASURED and allowed to compete (if judged compliant with the class rules) as an amendment to the NOR. Without measuring, there will be no wing sails. There is contention that Bora's first element may be considered as the sail luff, in which case it may not measure within the allowed luff length. He may (highly probable) have to modify the wing as currently configured to deal with this issue.

This is the same issue that the C Class cats had to deal with this past summer - Invictus did not measure in and had to modify the wing to get past measurement.

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[Doug Lord]

Straight from the horse's mouth. Wing sails (not Bora Gulari's specifically) can be MEASURED and allowed to compete (if judged compliant with the class rules) as an amendment to the NOR. Without measuring, there will be no wing sails. There is contention that Bora's first element may be considered as the sail luff, in which case it may not measure within the allowed luff length. He may (highly probable) have to modify the wing as currently configured to deal with this issue.

This is the same issue that the C Class cats had to deal with this past summer - Invictus did not measure in and had to modify the wing to get past measurement.

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Like I said in the previous post -of course they have to be measured! The fact is that by voting for Option 1 the wing's use was approved for the Worlds.
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UPDATE 1/4/11: The Wing under sail... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfrc-xax8Cc&feature=player_embedded

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From the "Understanding Wing Technology" thread in multihulls:

Wing measurement in the C Class: Sail area to be measured in accordance with the "ISAF Measurement & Calculation of Sail Area Instructions" (Last issued May 1985).
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Update1/4/11:
Permission from the IMCA is hereby given for the following class rule changes to be implemented for the 2010-11 Australian Championship and 2011 World Championship only.

The following new class rule is added for this event only:

9.12 If the rig is a wing sail it is to be measured in its entirety according to the ISAF Guide to Sail Area Calculation with the total sail area being not greater than 8.00 m2. Rule 8. Spars is not valid for wing sails. The leading edge length of the wing shall not exceed 5185 mm. Fittings and structure that are for the sole purpose of attaching or retaining the wing to the boat shall be disregarded for the purpose of sail area measurement provided they are no bigger than is reasonably required for that purpose.

The following new definition is added to the class rules for this event only:

Definition:
Wing means a rigid or semi-rigid structure (encompassing a traditional yacht's mast and mainsail structures), similar to an aircraft wing fixed approximately vertically to provide propulsion from the wind.

This rule change is issued by the IMCA Executive Committee, under the authority of the IMCA Council of Presidents and with the approval of the International Sailing Federation under RRS87 and ISAF Regulation 26.5(f).Mark Robinson
IMCA President
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UPDATE: 1/4/11 from Phil S:

Posted Today, 06:53 PM

"The wings measured to area and can sail in the regatta. Charlie McKee is using one. Bora has decided he is faster with a sail". Note: emphasis added by DL
Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! whats for dinner?

Interesting Moth Worlds blog- seems their are some rather large species of marine life swimming around: http://knowlesmoth.blogspot.com/

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Moth: Australian Nationals and 2011 Worlds schedule:

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Results of Aussie Nationals ,Day 1-USA not doing too well-no mention of wing-probably not used since the ok is only for the Worlds:

http://www.mothworlds.org/belmont/results/

Record Fleet Size: Kamikaze Tactics and the Fight to Foil

Day one of the Zhik Moth Australian Championship had a record-breaking 101 foiling Moths on the start line. Scary thought? “100 boats? It wasn’t too bad – just those port-tackers! The stunt-drivers!” said local Aussie Warren Sare.

The fight to foil was the name of the game. Getting to that first puff and flying up and out of the pack meant everything – and with a pin favoured start line, the fleet was chock-full of kamikaze port-tackers risking all to foil first.

“Once you’re [at the pin], you’re committed to doing something crazy,” admitted Sydney sailor Phil Kurts, adding with a smile, “If you’re going fast enough, a gap will appear.”

Local hot shot Joe Turner took race 1, who 4th at the first windward mark made impressive gains and by lap two lead into the finish. Iain Jensen landed 2nd a whole 6 places in front of his 49er skipper Nathan Outteridge who suffered a bad start and worked back to 8th. Rob Gough, Scott Babbage and Tom Slingsby rounded out the top 5.

After two generals, racers finally got out the gates for race 2, with Nathan Outteridge pulling a kamikaze manoeuvre. He nailed a port start, terrifying more than a few starboard tackers with a few close ducks, and launched into clear air. Outteridge cleaned up with minutes over 2nd place Scott Babbage.

Race 3 started in a puff that cut out when the top guys hit the first mark – further separating those that foiled and those that did not. ISAF Sailor of the Year Tom Slingsby lead the 1st first beat, but the lighter and faster Outteridge and Babbage quickly overtook him on the run. Outteridge took the win, after Babbage went for a quick swim putting him back to 2nd.

The mixed fleet of international sailors suffered more than a few general recalls and black flags dragging out the 3 races to a staggering 6.5 hours. Lake Macquarie’s light and shifty South Easterly clocking North challenged the visitors, favoured the locals (top 4 in race 1 were all Lake Macquarie boys), and was universally frustrating.
http://www.mothworlds.org/belmont/2...-size-kamikaze-tactics-and-the-fight-to-foil/



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[CutOnce]

Word is that Bora Gulari has decided through on-the-water testing to NOT use his wing as he is faster using a soft sail. Charlie McKee (of 18' skiff fame) has been using Bora's wing.

I'm sure Bora's decision to NOT use the wing was not arrived at lightly, but it underscores the issue that the performance gap today between soft sails and wings in the Moth class is perhaps not as significant as has been speculated. It is early days for wings in the Moth class, but they are starting development from the current state of the art in C-Class cats. Perhaps the advantage of the wings only starts to become significant with higher aspect ratio rigs and proportions outside the current Moth rules for luff length. Given the class will have to revisit wings and deal with writing new rules after this worlds, it will be interesting if they will impose the existing luff length / spar length limitations on the wing going forward, effectively limiting optimizing wings and where the sail area is placed.

I'm pretty sure part of Bora's decision making has to do with disaster planning as well. Crashes (and fast recovery) are an integral part of Moth racing, and swimming with a soft sail rig is far less likely to be a race ender than swimming with a wing. There is a big difference between a 7th place finish and a DNF when counting points on a regatta.

What this leads me to believe is that Bora wants to win the regatta far more than he wants to win some of the races. Smart thinking. He can work on proving the wing technology when the stakes are lower.

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[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! The Wing

Word is that Bora Gulari has decided through on-the-water testing to NOT use his wing as he is faster using a soft sail. Charlie McKee (of 18' skiff fame) has been using Bora's wing.

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Yeah, see post 1224-might help to read previous posts.... After all the hell that's been raised on behalf of gulari using his wing I would imagine a few people are just a little put out.......He's not doing well so far in the Nationals-must be too light? I don't think The Wing is permitted there anyway*....

*apparently it is being used in the Nationals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghjZE_tGcqs&feature=player_embedded

 

[CutOnce]

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Yeah, see post 1224-might help to read previous posts.... After all the hell that's been raised on behalf of gulari using his wing I would imagine a few people are just a little put out.......He's not doing well so far in the Nationals-must be too light? I don't think The Wing is permitted there anyway....

I generally try hard to pay attention to my forum settings - I have you on ignore, so I don't see your postings unless my resolve weakens and I click on "View post". My bad.

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[Doug Lord]

I generally try hard to pay attention to my forum settings - I have you on ignore, so I don't see your postings unless my resolve weakens and I click on "View post". My bad.

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CutOnce

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Please don't change your settings.....

 

[P Flados]

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Yeah, see post 1224-might help to read previous posts.... After all the hell that's been raised on behalf of gulari using his wing I would imagine a few people are just a little put out.......He's not doing well so far in the Nationals-must be too light? I don't think The Wing is permitted there anyway*....

*apparently it is being used in the Nationals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghjZE_tGcqs&feature=player_embedded

Bora has been a focal point in the wing discussion and he has been pretty level headed and practical in what he has said. It looks to me like Bora, Bear and a few others have really treated the wing as a team effort. However, given the small time on the water, I would by no means expect the wing to be "dialed in" for optimum performance. If Bora does not wing it, but others do, we may get a more honest assessment of how good they are at this point.

If Bora won with a wing, we would really not know if it was the wing or it was Bora, but many would want to follow just because of his results. If the results were mixed, we would be just plain confused. If Bora did poorly with the wing, it would turn a lot of people off regardless of any reality.

If the non-Bora wing equipped boats do better than would be expected normally, the wings will look to be a plus even though Bora chose not to use one.

If the wing equipped boats give mixed results, we will probably assume that more tweaking is needed.

If the wing equipped boats do worse than would be expected normally, the wing looks to be well short of where it needs to be in terms of optimizing for moth use.