Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard | Trade Only Today

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Sep 22, 2015.

  1. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    The purchasers got what they paid for.

    An economical high fuel mileage fun to drive auto.

    That some buroRat wants the efficiency turned down to meet some Air Police specification dreamed up by grand standing politicians is his problem.

    A changed computer chip will "solve " the VW problem, and the aftermarket will create a chip to restore the cars performance.

    Perhaps VW should give each purchaser the cost of the replacement market chip!
     
  2. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    By distorted culture I mean quite generally. The nationals I've met all seem very nice, hardworking with good family values, etc., but with the way they were raised and educated, conformance was emphasised. Conformance in most regards was pushed (hard) and creativity, which often also comes with an aloof child, sometimes one with behaviour issues (like boredom, so they goof off) is punished. I was one of these kids, bored out of my mine in grade school, so I constantly goofed off and got into trouble. When I got to high school it was more of the same, but a few teachers realized why and challenged me, which got me interested and my creativity had an outlet.

    What this simply means on a general scale is, innovation is born from the "odd ball" kids, more often than not. If this trait is stifled early in development, you end up with a society that needs to copy and steal for its industrial enterprises. How many stories of a car, manufactured by an outside firm, is literally copied and rebadged as China made and built. How many other products? Why? They have more than a sufficiently large population to have innovation and creativity all over the rest of the world, several times over, but instead, they steal trade secrets, copy whole factories and the products within, etc.

    This isn't the fault of the people of China, who I've met and seem just like anyone else, but the political and social environment they've had several generations grow up in. When this regimentation and control is so stifling and restrictive, you don't have a choice but to "borrow" other people's creativity and innovation. Since the '80's they've started to loosen up economically, but socially they're still very repressive and this doesn't help the country find it's own way, nor its people develop new and innovative whatevers. Eventually, they'll have no choice but to "play ball" they way the rest of the industrialized world does and suddenly (in a generation or two), we'll see the effect the huge influx of ideas, because of its population base can provide. It's this very reason the USA had such a quick and large impact on the world stage, in such a sort life span. The freedom that comes with letting people roam wild with ideas, instead of forcing them to conform to preconceived notions of behaviour, will generate lots of products, services, devices, etc. The USA had lead the world in most regards, because it's people can live and be creative without being told they must stop that sort of "oddball" thinking. Once China releases these self imposed "bonds" on their people, there's going to be a big rush of innovation, simply because of the size of the "database" they can draw on to create it.
     
  3. Leo Lazauskas
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    Leo Lazauskas Senior Member

    There are clearly many factors at play here apart from those you
    pointed out.

    China is not a wealthy country. It has had many disastrous famines
    that have killed millions, so social harmony is something many value
    above the personal freedoms that some other countries believe in and
    take for granted.
    You and I find many of their social and political restrictions too
    stifling, just as many Chinese find many of our customs, politics,
    and social systems unusual or inappropriate for them.

    They started their industrialization well after the USA, and they have
    been ruthlessly exploited by Westerners in the past, e.g. the Opium
    Wars (among others), and by the Japanese during the 1930's and 1940's.
    They might well be more advanced if that interference hadn't occurred.
    I'm not surprised that some Chinese still have a contempt for values
    some countries hold dear.

    Many in China are suspicious of the behaviour of other countries, just
    as some western countries treat them with suspicion.
    They have their rabid nationalists, as do many other countries.
    We might find the continuation of that resentment and antagonism silly.
    Some Chinese and Japanese don't think it is wise to forget about
    Commodore Perry's visit 150 years ago, just as some in the USA will
    find it hard to ever forget about Pearl Harbour.

    China is spied on, and they spy back. Some countries interfere in what
    China see as its sphere of influence, and they retaliate by whatever
    means they see fit, sometimes taking whatever they feel is essential
    for their economic and military safety. Sometimes that is government
    sanctioned and encouraged; sometimes it is just done by individuals
    and groups hoping to make a quick, easy profit.

    Companies build factories in China to take advantage of cheap labour;
    China gets the obvious benefits and they also have easy access to
    industrial secrets and manufacturing methods. That's the risk of doing
    business there. It's mean and ugly, but only an idiot wouldn't now be
    aware of the risks.

    Although patents and restrictions on innovations and inventions have
    existed for roughly 400 years in the Western world, that doesn't mean
    that the system will (or should) last forever. It's pretty obvious
    that not all cultures and political systems believe that patents are
    necessary or desirable.

    Will China "have no choice but to play ball" as you suggest? Maybe,
    and maybe not. I seriously doubt that military pressure will work
    on making China comply. And who knows, those supporting patents and
    restrictions might not have the numbers to force their system on the
    rest of the world. It just might not be worth the money and trouble.

    The irony of the name "Gunboat International" is breath-taking. Is
    Matthew Perry a director? ;)
     
  4. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Leo, I do understand the realities of the situation in China, likely better than most, particularly the historical influences imposed, but in recent times, much of this has been self determined.

    Just take a look at their automotive offerings. Direct copies of western and Japanese cars. Some so lackluster in the knockoff, that they only change the name by a single letter.

    I firmly believe that innovation and creativity are the driving forces behind advancement, politically, socially and industrially. This can only foster in a society that permits out of the box thinking. China has made huge expenditures in education and infrastructure in recent decades, understandably so, as one speaks to the future, while the other addresses the present. If conformity is insisted, then the very ones that will come up with the next latest and greatest will be disadvantaged, if not punished.

    As to playing major league ball, history has shown China has been left on the outside, again, because of non-acceptance of international law in regard to several issues; currency manipulation, intellectual property rights, plagiarism, wholesale federation and manipulation of industries, etc. If they refuse to play by the same set of rules, they'll never be a world player, except as a labor market (which is rapidly aging) and supplier of relatively cheap goods (which is shrinking because of their growing median wealth). Socially, they're where most western countries were at the turn of the 20th century, lots of big industry, tightly controlled by ownership, with little regard to living wages and employ welfare. Eventually, the owners had no choice but to up wages, to keep a work force and this has started in China, but now the newly created middle class is insisting on things, like 24 hours a day of electricity, new cars and home appliances, etc., which forces the industry owners into the same spiral western societies faced, decades ago and the value of their cheap labor force goes down in the world market. This is the normal evolution to a first world nation and why innovation is so important, if for no other reason than to stay relevant.
     
  5. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    Chinese have never had "intellectual property" concept.

    Traditionally, all knowledge has been free to anyone, and no person could own it.

    IIRC the Romans were pretty much the same, being more than willing to let anyone learn Latin and everything else.

    I think the Western concept of IP started with Judeo-Christain regime of only allowing priests to access/interpret the Bible, then with various trade guilds.


    Has anyone without the US Govt in their pocket(like Microsoft) ever been even 1/2 successful bringing legal action in Red China? Anyone ever gotten Chinese to change behavior without being able to threaten Trade Sanctions for their exports to USA?

    I'd expect you would be tackling ghosts, and their system would make the American system of corp shielding of shareholder's from personal responsibility seem mild. I'd expect you'd spend about $10-20 thousand only to find out "that company no longer exists" even though the same faces are doing the same thing at the same location, and asking police for any enforcement would be a non-starter. You could file all the papers you want but nothing would move.
     
  6. Leo Lazauskas
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    Leo Lazauskas Senior Member

    Yes, much of it is self-imposed, and they certainly do have increasing
    numbers of middle class who want more comfort and luxury goods. By the
    same token, they have been very successful at moving millions of
    people out of desperate poverty.


    Sure. Early Japanese motor vehicles and motor bikes were crap, too.

    China is still gearing up in many industries. For example, they made
    cheap, poor quality microscopes for a start. Factories were built,
    workers trained, and the next generation were better. Of course they
    couldn't make anything like the quality coming out of Jena and other
    Zeiss plants. Now, China is making microscopes under contract for
    Zeiss. There is no need to innovate in that field and there are
    thousands of similar examples.

    I agree, too, that it does mean China is just a source of cheap labour
    at present. However, they have a lot of people still in poverty, and
    that is a priority for them. That people might have hurt feelings
    because their designs are plagiarised is irrelevant.

    Uh-uh. So why did it take so long to get universal suffrage in some
    countries that you would view as paragons of innovation, creativity,
    and industry? Innovation is neither necessary nor sufficient
    to create an equal society.


    Or they can leave China and start enterprises elsewhere.


    That's current affairs, not "history". :)

    China is a "world player". Maybe not in a military sense, but their
    economic and political influence is growing steadily in many countries
    around the world. Whether that's sustainable is still an open question.

    Yes, they do plagiarize and spy. In that regard they are world-class
    "players". In fact, I'd say that their industrial spies are equal to
    many of those that try to stop them, or spy on them.

    Why should they play according to all international laws? The CPC is
    not interested in the rules established by capitalists, except where
    it suits their agenda and interests. There are many instances where
    capitalist countries bend "the rules", overtly or covertly, to suit
    their own interests. Countries that are strong enough can accept the
    consequences, or they can flip a middle finger to their accusers.
    If someone doesn't like that, they can conduct business with someone
    else.

    Yes, they are predominantly a source of cheap labour now, but they
    are starting to buy up a lot of businesses, land and resources around
    the world. They are able to do that because they have spare cash
    when other "world players" are in debt. If that is due in part to
    China's manipulation of currency markets, then they have outplayed
    capitalists at their own game. I'd say that qualifies them as a
    "world player" in that game. ;)

    I think it's unreasonable to expect that China should be at
    the same level as 1st world countries now when they have really
    only emerged from chaos and virtual feudalism since about 1945.

    BTW, I appreciate that having designs or other work plagiarized can
    make some people extremely angry and resentful. I don't know what
    they can do about it, apart from unleashing lawyers where that
    has some hope of success. The reality is that some countries and
    cultures are completely uninterested in the rights of intellectual
    property holders. They might even be more ethical and moral in
    many ways but, with regard to IP, you might as well try to convince
    them that they can't use the word "fish" because someone else
    used it first.
     
  7. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    So Gunboat invented the catamaran and M&M stole it to give to HH after giving it to Gunboat in the first place who stole it from India 1000 years ago?
     
  8. Leo Lazauskas
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    Leo Lazauskas Senior Member

    I think lawyers will be the winners in this dispute.
    My (lawyerly) wife adds, "And a good thing too! When businesses don't have
    their own representatives on-site who speak both languages fluently, and who
    are competent to supervise the many aspects of the building process, it's
    money for old rope".
     
  9. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    from another forum...
     
  10. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    from another forum....
     
  11. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    this is all assuming there is something wrong with the build quality, when from the same yard they are building plenty of other stuff like the HH42 and their cats
     
  12. Poida
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    Poida Senior Member

    China is real bad eh.

    They invented industrial spying?? I know nobody said that.

    When I was just starting my apprenticeship late 60s I worked in the "Design and Development" of a tractor manufacturer. One of the jobs I was involved in was stripping a competitors tractor to find out how their gear shift worked.

    Japan was the copier and selling substandard products.

    Industrial spying has been going on in the Western World as long as I have been alive.

    Even today copyright means nothing unless you have a lot of money to fight it, and it only takes a small modification in some cases to make it a "different product."

    Why copy? Why reinvent the wheel. In marketing it is easier to get a slice of the existing market than try to establish a new one.

    China is not doing anything else that has not already been done in other countries including the Western World.

    Poida
     
  13. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member

    The story is about yard in Taiwan, but we are talking on China here?
    Am I missing the point?
     
  14. Leo Lazauskas
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    Leo Lazauskas Senior Member

    I think the company is Taiwanese but some of the work was done in mainland China.
     

  15. myark
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    myark Senior Member

    Copy right design with boat is worthless and design patent is weak, and if it had any legal leverage a design patent last for a few years and then becomes public domain.
    To try and make some one loose face in China is cutting all communications and a complete loss of respect.
     
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