Foiler vulnerability to trash in the water

[peterraymond]

You've got a bit of an attitude, starting off with an insult and expecting a reasonable answer...

No shortage of insults on this forum. Is a reasonable answer ever expected?

 

[bistros]

No shortage of insults on this forum. Is a reasonable answer ever expected?

Actually, this is a very pleasant forum and reasonable answers are the rule, not the exception. A quick historical read will show how the bulk of the bad behavior is by or in direct reaction to one incendiary person.

Bad behavior is generally discouraged and offenders often leave when they fail to get the attention they desire.

Your contributions to the forum have been great, both good questions and reasoned answers. You have been perhaps a little quick to judge people, probably due to your lack of appreciation of the long multi-year history of rude behavior, insults and passive-aggressive trouble making of our most vocal foiling advocate.

--
Bill

 

[Timothy]

ct49 mentioned that one of the leading windsurfer builders opined that planing windsurfers or at least the development of boards and rigs designed to plane with no regard for displacement performance may have helped to precipitate the decline in participation of the sport. I would agree. The early long board delta sailed boards were user friendly and could be sailed from point a to point b after just a few lessons by a person of limited athletic ability and the sensation was sufficiently fulfilling and pleasurable that a punter could be persuaded to go out and equip themselves with what at the time was a reasonably priced set of gear even for a teenager then the largest market demographic. Todays planing boards and rigs however require months of training and serious athleticism. And cost? In Thailand where most all windsurfer boards are made, I can buy 3 new 125 cc motor bikes for the cost of my current board fin and rig. The problem is the cat is out of the bag. Every potential new windsurfer sees the brightly coluored sails flying across the water and perceives that this is windsurfing. It is the new norm. Efforts have been made by Starboard to introduce beautiful new long boards with centerboards but with no marketing success. There is no going back. It is not surprising that kite boards that a novice can be up and planing on after only a few lessons ,and that can be purchased for half the price of a windsurfer, and are easily transportable to boot are now dominating the beaches. Plastic bags and other crap in the water are a problem to foiling craft but I think the real impediment to their acceptance by a wider public is their cost and ease of use. Until if ever a foiler can be developed that is comparable in cost ( hopefully cheaper )and user friendliness than let's say a Laser ,I think that planing foilers will be a niche market at best.

 

[bistros]

ct49 mentioned that one of the leading windsurfer builders opined that planing windsurfers or at least the development of boards and rigs designed to plane with no regard for displacement performance may have helped to precipitate the decline in participation of the sport. I would agree. The early long board delta sailed boards were user friendly and could be sailed from point a to point b after just a few lessons by a person of limited athletic ability and the sensation was sufficiently fulfilling and pleasurable that a punter could be persuaded to go out and equip themselves with what at the time was a reasonably priced set of gear even for a teenager then the largest market demographic. Todays planing boards and rigs however require months of training and serious athleticism. And cost? In Thailand where most all windsurfer boards are made, I can buy 3 new 125 cc motor bikes for the cost of my current board fin and rig. The problem is the cat is out of the bag. Every potential new windsurfer sees the brightly coluored sails flying across the water and perceives that this is windsurfing. It is the new norm. Efforts have been made by Starboard to introduce beautiful new long boards with centerboards but with no marketing success. There is no going back. It is not surprising that kite boards that a novice can be up and planing on after only a few lessons ,and that can be purchased for half the price of a windsurfer, and are easily transportable to boot are now dominating the beaches. Plastic bags and other crap in the water are a problem to foiling craft but I think the real impediment to their acceptance by a wider public is their cost and ease of use. Until if ever a foiler can be developed that is comparable in cost ( hopefully cheaper )and user friendliness than let's say a Laser ,I think that planing foilers will be a niche market at best.

+1

Physics dictates the user-friendliness can't reach the same level as a Laser. Crashing a foiler at 20 knots will require dissipation of far more energy than a Laser death rolling at 13 knots in the same wind. I'd rather dump a Laser and swim than hit the shrouds as I pass my foiler in the air.

Given my history of involvement in sports others may consider "dangerous" I'd probably still have a go at a foiler if I had the chance. But I'd do so fully aware that crashing could result in more trouble than sailing a Laser.

Although our local "science" formula mechanic will say adding weight just means you have to add more righting moment and more sail area, keeping weight down on a foiler means more expensive manufacture and exotic materials. I do not think there is any way you could create a simple-to-use, mass market appeal foiler for $6-7,000US dollars than could support a 200 pound helm (while making enough profit to keep the company floating).

--
Bill

 

[Doug Lord]

+1

1) Physics dictates the user-friendliness can't reach the same level as a Laser.
2) keeping weight down on a foiler means more expensive manufacture and exotic materials.
--
Bill

===========

1) Voodoo physics maybe. Crashing, despite the myth made popular by the Moth, is NOT an intrinsic characteristic of a foiler. A Peoples Foiler will be designed not to crash even if that means a lower top end speed.
---
2) No, it does not: Bladerider produces or did produce an all glass Moth. And one of the fastest foilers in the US was rotomolded with an aluminum mast and foils. This boat is also one of the easiest to sail foilers yet produced.
====
There is absolutely no reason under the sun,moon and stars-related to physics, materials etc why a bi-foiler could not be produced that is easy to sail and relatively inexpensive.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

1) A Peoples Foiler will be designed not to crash even if that means a lower top end speed.

2) No, it does not: Bladerider produces or did produce an all glass Moth. And one of the fastest foilers in the US was rotomolded with an aluminum mast and foils. This boat is also one of the easiest to sail foilers yet produced.

There is absolutely no reason under the sun,moon and stars-related to physics, materials etc why a bi-foiler could not be produced that is easy to sail and relatively inexpensive.

1. All boats crash, one way or another, Doug, especially small ones. Hoist a sailor up off the water any distance and he'll find a way to make the journey back down in an unceremonious fashion. Dreaming that it won't be so, will not make the fact go away.

2. And just how many all-glass Moths did they sell? How many Moths, of any kind, is Bladerider selling today right in the middle of the stupendous revolution?

That fastest foiler you mention..? It also had a full, aluminum space frame within the plastic hull to absorb the loads, couldn't get out of its own way in anything less than 10 knots of breeze and cost a very large bundle, even back when it first appeared in the 90's. No telling how much one would cost today with existing prices for aluminum and plastic resins.

Perhaps you can tell us how many have been built since the Windrider branch of Confluence Watersports was sold off in a corporate reorganization? Perhaps you can tell us how the new owners plan to keep labor costs low in the community where they are located?

Yeah, you betcha, that Rave sure is a great example of how a People's Foiler might come to pass.

 

[ancient kayaker]

The Laser is not a particularly user-friendly boat, from what I have read. The Sunfish would be a better example IMHO.

A training or People's Foiler would need to be designed for low cost and safety rather than performance, which means it's going to weigh more and move slower. I think that an anti-crash approach design implies surface piercing foils, single-handed beach launching suggests no rigging and retractable foils that can be deployed afloat, and market acceptance will require it to sail acceptably well without foils which is likely to further degrade performance.

A poor performance is a substantial disadvantage in a market where speed is perceived as the essence. While it is true that, in the car market mini-vans and cross-overs substantially outsell sports cars, even a People's Foiler is hardly a utility vehicle - the power boat rules supreme in that niche.

An approach that might lead to greater market acceptance would be a retrofit kit for several popular existing sailboat designs. That could get the cost down from thousands to hundreds of dollars, at which point a lot of folk could be tempted to have a go.

Let's face it, if you take the greater boating public, select only the those interested in sailing, then have those with an interest in doing things differently step forward, you aren't going to get a big crowd. Appealing to the DIY crowd may be the key to a breakthrough, if there is ever going to be one.

I don't think you are going to get many converts from the boarding community, while they may have the athleticism and skills needed for successful foiling they are already going faster than a foiler and with less launching hassle.

While I would like to see foiling become more popular, it is difficult to see how it is going to happen. A significant problem is the fact that the majority of the non-boating public have never heard of it, neither have most of the boating public for that matter. Most of them have heard of the America's Cup and round-the-world races, and have seen the thicket of masts at the local marina and the inevitable stack of dinghies outside the clubhouse close by. But it is rare enough to see a dinghy race actually happening let alone a foiler get-together. It's a pity because it is a spectacular sport.

The whole thing needs more exposure.

So your mission, if you are willing to accept it, is to get it to happen as an Olympics event. This tape will self-destruct ...

 

[bistros]

The Laser is not a particularly user-friendly boat, from what I have read. The Sunfish would be a better example IMHO.

Lasers aren't unfriendly at all. You should go meet one on the beach at Wasaga. You'd be surprised how nice they are!

My point was simple high school physics - accelerate a given mass to a particular velocity and then dissipate the kinetic energy quickly. Doesn't matter what the sample boats are, 100kg doing 20 knots three feet above the water is going to make a much bigger splash than 130 kg doing 13 knots right on top of the water. I guess that may qualify as Voodoo to Doug, but to me it is undeniable.

I'm certain Doug is right and "someone" can design a simple, crash proof foiler that will dissipate energy slowly enough to be used as a kiddie ride at Disney. "Imagineering" he calls it. Okay, whatever. I must have missed that semester at University of Waterloo. Maybe they called the topic "Imagine Earrings" and I skipped it. Maybe it was in the Civil stream. Dunno.

A training or People's Foiler would need to be designed for low cost and safety rather than performance, which means it's going to weigh more and move slower. I think that an anti-crash approach design implies surface piercing foils, single-handed beach launching suggests no rigging and retractable foils that can be deployed afloat, and market acceptance will require it to sail acceptably well without foils which is likely to further degrade performance.

A poor performance is a substantial disadvantage in a market where speed is perceived as the essence. While it is true that, in the car market mini-vans and cross-overs substantially outsell sports cars, even a People's Foiler is hardly a utility vehicle - the power boat rules supreme in that niche.

An approach that might lead to greater market acceptance would be a retrofit kit for several popular existing sailboat designs. That could get the cost down from thousands to hundreds of dollars, at which point a lot of folk could be tempted to have a go.

Let's face it, if you take the greater boating public, select only the those interested in sailing, then have those with an interest in doing things differently step forward, you aren't going to get a big crowd. Appealing to the DIY crowd may be the key to a breakthrough, if there is ever going to be one.

I don't think you are going to get many converts from the boarding community, while they may have the athleticism and skills needed for successful foiling they are already going faster than a foiler and with less launching hassle.

While I would like to see foiling become more popular, it is difficult to see how it is going to happen. A significant problem is the fact that the majority of the non-boating public have never heard of it, neither have most of the boating public for that matter. Most of them have heard of the America's Cup and round-the-world races, and have seen the thicket of masts at the local marina and the inevitable stack of dinghies outside the clubhouse close by. But it is rare enough to see a dinghy race actually happening let alone a foiler get-together. It's a pity because it is a spectacular sport.

The whole thing needs more exposure.

Here (at boatdesign.net) we have one brave pioneering soul who has dedicated his last ten years to shamelessly pimping the opium-hazed dream of a volksFoiler. I don't know what type of pan flute he's playing, but this Pied Piper hasn't got a crowd following him to the beach. The concept hasn't lacked exposure, it has lacked interest from the crowd. Ask the question at any post-race bar in any dinghy racing club worldwide "Has anyone heard of the People's Foiler?". (Duck quickly to avoid the flying coasters) You'll find out that people are aware of the idea, but aren't interested in the concept. Dinghy Fleet solidarity is stronger than the Ontario Teacher's Federation.

So your mission, if you are willing to accept it, is to get it to happen as an Olympics event. This tape will self-destruct ...

The Olympics are both a exposure blessing and a class-killing curse. I would not wish Olympic class selection on any dinghy I liked. It forces freezing/glacial slowdown of ongoing development, costs go through the roof, and the social scene suffers as full-time sailing "businessmen" take over from the amateurs. You have to be able to substantively display or generate world wide interest in your boat to make it past first base.

--
Bill

 

[Paul B]

Lasers aren't unfriendly at all. --
Bill

Last weekend I saw a friend who is an outstanding Masters Laser sailor sailing in to the club's ramp on a Finn. I went down to help him pull it up on the dolly.

After hearing him (and others in the past) talk about sailing Lasers vs Finns it sounds to me like the Laser is quite friendly, comparatively. I've never sailed a Finn so I have no personal comment.

 

[ancient kayaker]

... My point was simple high school physics ...

I don't disagree with what you said: I believe surface-piercing foils would be more "crash-proof" than the fully immersed variety, although less efficient. Of course, they are even more susceptible to trash in the water (getting back to the subject).

... The Olympics are both a exposure blessing and a class-killing curse ... Bill

True ... not that I was being entirely serious

 

[Doug Lord]

I don't disagree with what you said: I believe surface-piercing foils would be more "crash-proof" than the fully immersed variety, although less efficient. Of course, they are even more susceptible to trash in the water (getting back to the subject).



True ... not that I was being entirely serious

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Terry, I would think surface piercing foils would be more susceptable to ventilation than fully submerged foils and therefore have a greater proclivity to crash. The max lift is so close to the surface its just asking to ventilate the foil... Of course you can deal with it-at some cost.....

 

[Doug Lord]

You'll find out that people are aware of the idea, but aren't interested in the concept. Bill

==========
Uninformed hogwash! There is a great deal of interest in the concept of an easy to sail foiler. Andrew McDougall, designer of the Bladerider, Mach II and KA Sails is building a whole new Company on the concept!

 

[bistros]

==========
Uninformed hogwash! There is a great deal of interest in the concept of an easy to sail foiler. Andrew McDougall, designer of the Bladerider, Mach II and KA Sails is building a whole new Company on the concept!

Perhaps you are right. The strong negative reaction may have been to the person promoting the volksFOILER concept, not the concept itself.

--
Bill

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Doug,

Bill is talking about a broad spectrum of dinghy sailors whereas you are looking to optimistically direct your comments across this same broad based interest, while the facts are that foilers and interest in same, are a very, very, small segment of the market.

When you say that AMAC is building a whole new company on the concept... the truth of the matter is now and shall remain for an indeterminate period, that he is really looking to build a SMALL company, based on the concept.

You've had years to show us that small craft foiling is really Da Bomb. The sales figures, the regatta turnouts and the overall industry interest, has proven you wrong at every turn.

When you do get it; that foiling is not an industry wide revolution... you might be able to speak about the issues from a grounded perspective. The possible applications for foils within the sailing community are miniscule, at best and pretty much everyone here and in the greater sailing community knows that.

If you think otherwise, perhaps you need to prove your argument with something other than a fusillade of images we've all seen, or an endless list of techy numbers... which we have also seen. Show us some proofs. Show us the true numbers of boats that have been manufactured and the true numbers for the boats that have entered the important regattas. (hint here: ask nicely and Chris T just might share that data with you)

Here in the US, it would be good to see how many foiling boats are actually being used and where they are located. Through that, we can see if these foiling guys are sailing as a collection of growing groups, or are isolated from the greater sailing community, as if they have an unfortunate disease.

It's all on you and wordsmithing won't get you there. Show us the beef.

 

[Doug Lord]

Doug,


When you do get it; that foiling is not an industry wide revolution...

------------------------------
Really? ostlind that is a comment not based in the real world.
In the last 10-12 years: foils have been used on an 11' dinghy to beat every other boat under 20' and to set a speed record of over 30knots on an 11 footer. A new trapeze singlehander was introduced. The International 14 class adopted rudder t-foils as class legal and they are now
required to do well in the class! The National 12 class has adopted retractable rudder t-foils.The first 16' multifoiler was introduced. The first twin rigged foiler produced by Hobie Cat was introduced. An International 14 became the first two person bi-foiler. The R Class has adopted full flying hydrofoil systems. An Optimist pram has been foiled. A beach catamaran or two are being produced with rudder t-foils as standard. The NACRA 20 has committed to using "foil assist" in the form of lifting daggerboards. A full flying foil system for the Laser is under development. The A Class has allowed minimum lift canted or curved foils. The new Steve Clark designed C Class Cat to race later this year is rumored to be using "banana boards". Paul Ricelli has designed a 14 footer using the (very innovative)equivalent of a rudder t-foil. Hugh Welborn has designed, tested and is producing foil assisted(DSS equiped) monohulls in the 20-30' range and in the 30' to 40' range-with plans afoot for much larger applications of the DSS system. The Catri trimaran was introduced using foil assist for the first time on a production trimaran. Thomas Jundt has designed and successfully flown a 26' full flying monofoiler. The ORMA tri's proved the viability of lifting hydrofoils on large trimarans. Banque Populaire set an Atlantic record using lifting hydrofoils. Groupama used lifting hydrofoils 100% of the time in setting a record pace around the world. Hydroptere-59' long and 80' wide is now the fastest sailboat on the planet. The Hydroptere team has announced the construction of a 100' version of the foiler to set the round the world record. The 40' twin side by side rigged Spitfire was developed in Australia. A 100' monohull development project(Speed Dream) with foil assist designed to equal or beat multihull speed around the world is under development. Three versions of foiling windsurfers have been developed. A new foil that does not require an altitude control system and that does not crash has been developed. Foiling kite boats and boards have been developed. And one of the most respected foiler deigners in the world has committed to develop an easy to sail foiler. Greg Ketterman is developing a new foiler for Hobie Cat. And the greatest prize in sailing was won by a boat using lifting hydrofoils.
All this and more in just a few years: it most definitely is an ongoing revolution-from the smallest to the largest("industry wide")- whether you see it or not-its happening all around you.