Quant 17 Foiler

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Sep 28, 2017.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Michi and his team have introduced a 17' foiler using Welbourns Q foils:
    NOTE: this is a pre- production prototype-the boat is still under development


    Tentative Technical data Quant 17


    Loa (length of hull) 5.20 m ,17'

    width (hull without Foils) 1.95 m ,6.4'

    weight ready to sail 95,0 kg, 209lb

    crew weight up to 170 kg, 374lb

    draught Centreboard 1.10 m, 3.6'

    height of rig 7,50 m, 24.6'

    sail area on the Wind 17,0 sqm, 183 sq.ft.

    Gennaker 15,0 sqm, 161 sq.ft.





    Quant 17.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Video:

     
  3. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Quant 17---
     
  4. johnelliott24
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    johnelliott24 Junior Member

    I think this is the future. You can add foils to any dinghy. The foils add lots of righting moment so the SA can be much larger. The leeward lifting foil can make a mono cant considerably to windward which produces lift and even more righting moment. You can take the foils off and have a day sailor again. I tried this with an FD with 300 sq ft of SA and it is great... much better than the original boat and much faster. I started to do this to my Tornado and realized that the FD has a lot less windage and you can take people for a picnic on it too. So I put foils on and added 100 sq ft of SA to it. The mast trailers in its step on the beam so when you arrive at the parking lot you unlash the mast and pull it up by hand (no pulley or winch even) by the forestay. You just drive in straight to the ramp, get out and pop the mast up and launch, put the car away and come back down to raise the sails at the dock.... and you have a foiling machine that you can take landlubbers for a sail on.

    The only problem is that the class sailors of the boat you choose will hate you. I changed the whole bow forward of the stays and the deck but left the stern the same for convenience and the class sailors still figured it out. I should have changed the stern a little too. (I really did all this to make it much lighter and better, but also to avoid all the complaining at the dock and beach. ) Anyway this is all very easy to do and the results are dramatic.

    The only work is in the foils. In my case two very nice friends gave me some great foil sections so all I had to do was put them together into a T. I think we will be seeing a lot of foiling monos soon, .... even the keelboats will have them. The improvements in stability and speed are enormous.
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    One of the first boats I raced aboard was as crew on the wire on an FD. Sure would like to see some pictures and video if possible. Sounds like great fun-way to go!
     
  6. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    If would be great to see pictures or video of your foiling FD, can you start a thread?

    People have been putting foils on boats for a very long time, but mainstream adoption seems elusive. In monohulls, only the I14 allows a T rudder and only the Moth and R Class (with a small number of boats in New Zealand) have full foiling. The RS 600 FF achieved limited success but seems to have been discontinued. From what I've seen, it was a difficult boat to sail. I've seen one boat around 8m with a forward canard, but don't know if it did anything useful.

    There have been one–off conversions, such as the Everest Cherub, and conversion kits like Glide Free foils for Lasers and RS Aero, but foiling monos just haven't taken off (if you'll excuse the pun). Most who want to go fast move to catamarans, which are fast, easy to sail and and very easy to de–tune when you've had enough.

    Maybe the Quant/Welbourn foil configuration is the answer for mono foiling. There will be some resistance to the outward facing foils, and stiff competition from similar sized non–foilers. What might spark interest is seeing a Quant 17 performing well against an I14, 16' skiff or similar performance boat. But it might be too early in the development cycle for that.
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    There are a whole bunch of new monofoilers under development. One thing about the Welbourn foilers(Quant 23 and 17) : they are designed to be very, very easy to learn to foil and are designed to takeoff in light air-around 5 knots windspeed.
    There are two threads that may be of some interest: "New Monofoilers 2016" and " New Monofoilers 2017".
    Mostly from there these boats are under development or being produced:
    1-MW68 6.8m,
    2- Flo1 -aeronamics
    3- Quant 23
    4- Quant 17
    5- SeAir 40
    6- I-Fly monofoiler(moth like)
    7-Wasp-(moth like)
    8- Fly 6
    9- Orca
    10- Optimist Pram-under development
    11-SeAir Mini
    12- Arkeema Mini
    Boats photographed using Glide Free Foils originally developed for the Laser:
    1-Laser
    2 RS Aero
    3-Open Bic
    4-Melges 14
     
  8. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    Notable that you didn't provide any links to the builders of all these foilers. The New Monofoilers 2017 thread only managed 5 replies in a year. Going through your list:

    1. MW68 6.8m (presumably the MW680F)— concept boat, none built, not a dinghy
    2. Flo1 -aeronamics — released Jan 2017, taking orders, still in development, no boats built yet.
    3. Quant 23—small numbers, may become popular as a small sports boat, not a dinghy.
    4. Quant 17—at prototype stage
    5. SeAir 40—concept boat, none built, not a dinghy
    6. I-Fly monofoiler—perhaps you mean the F101. Many think it's a trimaran, small numbers, seems focused on the UK
    7. Wasp—I guess you mean WASZP. A one design Moth, seems relatively popular as a recreational boat but no fleets.
    8. Fly 6—concept from 2015 that didn't go anywhere.
    9. Orca—still in design stage? No details on whether it's in production or not.
    10. Optimist Pram-under development—surely you're joking, where's your link?
    11. SeAir Mini—one-off prototype mini 650, not a production boat, not a dinghy
    12. Arkeema Mini—one-off prototype mini 650, not a production boat, not a dinghy. Hasn't shown to be any faster than a standard mini 650, nor to be able to foil in the conditions typically found in ocean racing. Much development work to do.

    Most of your list are either not dinghies or are prototypes that have not made it into production (or both). It trims down to just the WASZP (which is a one design Moth) and F101. You didn't mention the UFO, which is arguably a catamaran, but seems to be doing well in the USA. So just 4 foilers (counting the WASZP as a Moth, including the R Class but excluding the defunct RS600FF) in how many years since the first Moth foiler? And the R Class has very small numbers, limited to New Zealand so really only 3.

    Despite the many concepts and prototypes, very few boats have made it into production and even fewer have managed to sustain themselves. Clearly people aren't as enamoured with foiling dinghies as some evangelists would like. The Quant 17 might be the boat to change that, but it will be some time before anyone can say for sure.
     
  9. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Foiling is fun, but if foiling is the future then the sport of sailing has no future. The boats are great, but as Fred's list indicates, foiling is the smallest of the much-hyped "revolutions" by a long way. After about 15 years of modern foiling, there have probably been only something in the region of roughly 1500 foilers built. The Waszp is selling well, but the numbers still can't come close to comparing to those of established classes or to the growth earlier disciplines saw.

    At this stage in the great post WW2 dinghy boom, a single class like the Enterprise was selling at about ten times the rate of all the foiling boats combined.
    At this stage in the development of modern catamarans, one class alone (the Shearwater) was selling at about the same rate as all the foiling boats combined - and the cat boom didn't start for years after that.
    At this stage in the development of windsurfers, over ONE MILLION boards had been sold - not 1500-2000 or so as with all of the foiling boats. There were 1000 boards sold each week in the USA alone.
    At this stage in the development of offshore one designs, just one class alone (the J/24) was more popular than all of the foiling boats combined.
    At the moment it looks as if the RS Aero alone may be selling faster than all the foiling boats combined.

    Not one of these developments became "the future of the sport" so why will foiling? Extra foils, the larger rig and the larger righting moment cost money and add complication. And most people don't really give two hoots about absolute speed. We could all have added trapezes to Lasers years ago. We could have been trapezing off racks fitted to Snipes. No one did it because for most people the complication isn't worth it.

    The Moth class, while amazing, is growing slowly in minor countries and not at all in its major ones, indicating that even the oldest foiler hasn't achieved sustainable growth. The Moth can actually be seen as a perfect example of the fact that pure speed isn't what counts for most people. For far less money, Mothies could have far more performance with a kitefoiler. Instead they choose the slower, older and more expensive option. Oh, and if people really want to fly from the water by wind, boards do it incomparably better in most ways.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Many of the most popular areas for sailing are in areas where foiling doesn't really work. Go to the little lakes and rivers of England, the upper harbour of Sydney or the open bays of other Australian capitals, to Long Island Sound or the lakes of Europe. People there don't sail the fastest of current craft, for good reasons.

    Foilers are great, but they are not "the future".
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Foilers: The F101 was not mentioned because it is a trimaran. UFO was not mentioned because it is a catamaran. The IFly monofoiler is built by the same company that introduced the S9 clone.
    -------------------------------
    For John:
    Some foiler manufacturers are beginning to emphasize their boats ability to foil in light air which broadens the conditions in which foiling is viable. (Quant, Whisper and others). Instead of the emphasis on top end speed Quant emphasizes ease of foiling. Many foilers were built with the emphasis on speed since the late 90's and it's my opinion that there will be greater emphasis on foiling in light air and not just moderate or heavy air as well as a growing emphasis on comfort while foiling rather than top end speed. We are in the midst of one of the most exciting times in the history of sailboat development: a revolution where foiling has permeated almost every segment of sailing and that will continue to grow as newer types of foilers emerge. In 2017 alone the two largest sailing foilers ever built were launched- Gitana and Banque Populaire(see the links below). Another major development is that the next Americas Cup will be sailed in foiling monohulls! These are exciting times for foiler development-we ain't seen nothin yet!!
    Below should be almost every new foiler mono or not:

    1) New Monohull Foilers 2017 https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/new-monohull-foilers-2017.57671/

    2) New Monohull Foilers 2016 https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/new-monohull-foilers-2016.54975/

    3) New Trimaran Foilers https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/new-trimaran-foilers.55834/

    4) Steve and Dave Clarks UFO https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/steve-and-dave-clarks-ufo.56326/

    5) New Catamaran Foilers https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/new-catamaran-foilers.51898/

    6) among the fastest growing segments of foiling are kitefoilers

    7) Gitana 17-100' Trimaran Foiler-Launch 7/17/17 https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/gitana-17-100-trimaran-foiler-launch-7-17-17.58231/

    8) Banque Populaire IX - Ultim 32m Trimaran foiler https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/banque-populaire-ix-ultim-32m-trimaran-foiler.59330/


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  11. johnelliott24
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    johnelliott24 Junior Member

     
  12. johnelliott24
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    johnelliott24 Junior Member

    upload_2018-1-1_6-43-23.png
    Here is a shot of the first setup. Now the foils are mounted on arms that come out another meter for more righting.
    I made the boat look antique to the casual eye and removed a lot of weight (maybe 33% or so).
    The wings are flat on the bottom, canted and tilted up so they plane when they touch the water (at about 10 degrees). They provide tremendous righting force in case I sail badly.
    The wings are also in place to accommodate more SA. The boat hast 300 sq ft (28 sq meters) now but the plan is to go up another 50%.
    The goal is to fly in lighter winds but do a hybrid of planing and lifting on foils at higher speeds, i.e. "skimming" on the planing stern which I hope will be faster and crash proof.
    What I really like about this boat is that I can wheel it around on even grass alone. It is very easy to remove and put back on the trailer. I can flip the hull over alone to work on it. The mast pops up with a tug on the forestay (no cranking or pulleys) while you stand on the ground. The bow has a chine. That and the wings make it VERY dry. Finally it has lots of seating room and can take non-sailors for a spin. It is the biggest package that can be man-handled.

    To the gentleman's point about foiling not being practical.... this is true; however lifting foils like the ocean monos now have, provided a lot of righting force and they smooth out the ride. In no wind conditions with chop this FD is much nicer to sail with a foil down. The difference in rocking is enormous. Instead of sitting there with sails flapping around the boat is very steady with a foil. So even for more sedate sailing I see some sort of foils in the future. If not just for speed, but for comfortable sailing with less crew.
     
  13. Lurch723
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    Lurch723 Junior Member

    I could not agree more with you johnelliot24... I’ve had discussions with the man who developed the 600ff and he believes as I do that altitude foiling is fraught with danger for the crews-health. Low altitude/skimming is more stable and attainable, this is my goal with my tri/mono set up, although I am taking it fulling foiling just for fun later in the year.

    Like many sailors of all types I enjoy the interaction between the waters surface and hull form, for me altitude foiling robs this completely - and for what - speed? Speed is just numbers, bragging rights perhaps but in life speed doesn’t necessarily equal pleasure.

    ...and CT249 you are sooo right too, foiling isn’t THE FUTURE of sailing, it’s an alternative, as is sail boarding, Cat sailing, Kite boarding and Kayaking for that matter. These are all alternatives we can indulge in should we chose to, they aren’t right or wrong just different. The future is diversity, after all in the old days we sailed Mirrors, and Enterprises and Lasers as there was little alternative, it doesn’t make them bad boats because they clearly are not, we just have more alternatives these days competing for our leisure time.

    So just get out there and enjoy something different but don’t knock it or fear it.
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==============================
    Very interesting ,John! Good Luck!
     

  15. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    Thanks John. You have creative solutions for some of the big foiling issues. Probably best to start a new thread though rather than let this one drift.
     
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