Concrete submarine

[stevevall]

thanks

Tom, Good luck with your discussions concerning the company. Again with my ignorance about generated electricity. But the amounts you mentioned, even if they are estimates, the amount you are talking about wouldn't even turn the lights on for very long.
I sounds as though you are as optimistic as I am about this whole thing.
Again, good luck
Steve

 

[PanAmMan]

Rw.

Rwatson will you sign a "NDA" confidentiality agreement indemnifying stevall and others against any actions you might make using the insurance info?


That's my idea of Grumpy old man black hat. And I have "some" experiance with such things.


I do agree that there are hundreds of items, if not thousands. Amazingly i have seen thousands of designs hit the water addressing or aware of just a few!

Even a GOM "grumpy old man" can contribute the list if their goal is anything but stop this project at all cost.


Just a thought, on how you could contribute.

P.S. A marine surveyer can give you a list that is only a few hundred long for s surface vessel. Marine architects use a longer one but not always.

have fun all

 

[dskira]

I have a question and please do not take it badly:
Is somebody, Willem and other suporters or not of this project, ever went on a real submarine as a crew on long term dive and other exercises?

 

[mydauphin]

I have a question and please do not take it badly:
Is somebody, Willem and other suporters or not of this project, ever went on a real submarine as a crew on long term dive and other exercises?

Good point...
When I was out of college, the navy was recruiting for Nuclear subs. After several discussions, they gave us a 2 hour trip to see if we like it. Myself and many others they did not recruit. They were very honest in telling us the truth of life onboard. I realize I didn't want to do it when I got home and realized my legs wear all scratch up from the narrow passages and this was on huge attack nuclear sub.

If I were to build a concrete submarine I would make it positively buoyant. With a large weight under that can be release in emergency.

 

[PanAmMan]

A better question might be does anyone have experiance on or piloting a civilian tour sub. These subs have all of the same safety and training requirements as a Sub yacht. They also tend to be very spacious.

I fail to see the corelation between military sub experiance and civilian. Even civilian research subs with simular ratings are significantly different in their design and operation! But 1 ATM civil tour subs have the same basic system and safety requirements.

In aerospace we have to mark our kit planes "experimental", there is even a "sport" clasification in the us and EU with very limited altitude and speed.

Perhaps a civil Yacht could be clasified in the same way. Both are life critical. If the engine on a plane stops your in big trouble. So your plane has to meed certain glide and landing speed capabilities.

In a sub i would want to make sure the hull had passed a hull test every 10 years and have a ballast drop system that could surface with 50% flooding. Anyone with sub experiance probbably knows why I keep using that number. It is related to all of the fatal accidents known in the western world. 50% flooding is very very rare in a well designed hull.

The very nature of concrete would indicate that you will most likly deal with "seepage" rates. Many times this can be handled once you surface by typical pumps.

It is the through hull valves/hatches located above the bottom 30% of the hull that are the potential killers. The best way is to "NOT HAVE ANY". The snorkle and even the entry hatch should terminate inside no higher than the 30% line. In the event one fails it will compress the air above it instead of letting it escape. So you can still have a hatch on the top put the tube has to go most of the way to the bottome where it should have a second redundant hatch. This turns it into an escape trunk and even if "Both" hatches fail at depth you can pull the emergency balast drop handle. As the sub rises the sub will refill with air. in the mean time you sirvive on the "compresses" air

It relates to what happens to the flooded air volume as the sub surfaces after dropping the emergecy ballast. The expanded remaining trapped air once you surface, keeps you there and typically "re-fills" the sub to the level of the leek. Since "most recorded leaks in submarine concrete structures are are small" you have the most important asset in an emergency "Time"!

 

[PanAmMan]

Appology to RW

Hey RW...

Sorry for the "Warm" post...

It's a pet peve of mine haveing 30+ years delivery bleading edge technologies in aerospace, marine and land based vehicles and systems, civil and military.

No progress is ever made w/o a focus on contribution to the solution.

It was not meant to disparage you. Just to remind every one here that most people come here for advise.

A public appology for a public post!

 

[mydauphin]

Building a submarine is not a easy thing any which way. A submarine to live in comfortably is a real dream out of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. If you make tube 59 feet long with a 15 feet beam, then lose 1 feet all the way around, then 20% to ballast tanks, 50% of internal to equipment - you have a very tight unconfortable concrete cylindrical tomb.

Safety equipment, lots of training, Still more dangerous than building an airplane at home.

 

[mydauphin]

Oh, I would want windows....

 

[rwatson]

Just to keep this in the direction I want to go, .

So , does that mean you can't, or won't provide hard cost analysis, or details of the insurance ?

I do not know much about the current technology or the real life applications of either bicycle generated power, or wind generators. I know their are a lot of people trying to find a way to keep a large battery array charged to capacity. But is this merely wishful thinking or a reality?
I have a stationary bike on board, and I ride about an hour a day.

And this is someone trying to promote leading edge alternate technology ? My faith in your assertions fades dramatically at this point.

I hope I havnt projected any malice in my comments - I am only digging deep as any future investor would be expected to do.

Dont get me wrong Stevall, I am sure you are a great individual and a thoroughly nice person, but I would never put my money or life on the line for this project based on what I have read (or not read) about this project.

 

[PanAmMan]

Electric is the simplest engine system for a full time home / part time sub.

By that I mean a hybrid diesel electric. Battery technology is insuficient to make an ocean passage at any speed. maybe in two years then the eestor super caps come on line but until then its snorkel with a generator @ 15-20kts and then run under water for 8 hrs @ 5-7 kts.

While charging the batteries you need to make sure you ventilate them (and their lethal hydrogen) into the diesel generator and then overboard. Make sure the diesle engine intake is on it's own snorkel and seal the engine / battery room.

Then make sure the electric motor that spins the BIG prop is submersible. and seal that in a separate room.

if your interested in a full hybrid fit out you can buy them pretty much of the shelf from Sthyr.

But you need to think 20-80Kw system.

persoanly i would forget the batteries for anything but a slow mosy below the surface and run on the 45' snorkel the rest of the time making 20 kts.


anly submerging below snorkel to look at reef and such or dive under an idiot in the midlle of the night.

 

[rwatson]

No bad feelings PanAmMan, as I said, I am not in the business of being a 'naysayer' for the sake of it - I enjoy an educated discussion.

With these 'written' forums, its hard to put the right 'tone' sometimes, being unable to see face to face.

No apology needed, though I really appreciate the intent.

Rwatson will you sign a "NDA" confidentiality agreement indemnifying stevall and others against any actions you might make using the insurance info?

Well, its a bit hard to understand why it would be a problem. If I was about to buy an 80ft yacht, and asked the broker "Can I get this insured", and he said "Oh yes, Somewhere in California" and wouldnt give me more information, should I be satisified? What harm it could do to actually explain the type, content and source of cover ?

If the same broker said "This is 60% cheaper than other yachts of the same type", would I be being pedantic in asking for a list of comparative vessels before writing a cheque.

Its all stuff you would expect to get in sales brochures for any expensive purchase - and not at all unreasonable or 'picky'

If the broker then said "I have looked at this boat very carefully, and I am sold. I am also thinking you can power this ship with a couple of hours pedalling", should I be confident in his assesment of the boat?

Like I said before, Stevall is probably a top bloke, and a great person, but we are not getting anything 'real' back, no matter how much he wants to 'steer the conversation' away from real questions.

Even a GOM "grumpy old man" can contribute the list if their goal is anything but stop this project at all cost. ?

Raising valid questions IS a contribution. If not to the project principles, then to any potential 'converts' who havn't thought through all the implications.

They say that the way to appear wise is to meet any question with a knowing, confident smile, then excuse yourself. To my mind, thats why we have things like the financial crisis - no one wanted to look stupid asking inane questions.

Everytime someone evades, ignores or dismisses "mere details" is a warning signal about underlying problems. I have seen it time and time again.

End of dissertation

- at least I am having fun , and my typing speed is improving no end

 

[mydauphin]

I saw a couple videos on utube of a black sub been built under a shed. Is this 200 ton sub?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLv22CPYFSo

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=vAG6TeUKfXA&NR=1

It looks made of wood with cement stucco on it and no where near size projected.

 

[PanAmMan]

No bad feelings PanAmMan, as I said, I am not in the business of being a 'naysayer' for the sake of it - I enjoy an educated discussion.

With these 'written' forums, its hard to put the right 'tone' sometimes, being unable to see face to face.

No apology needed, though I really appreciate the intent.

Well, its a bit hard to understand why it would be a problem. If I was about to buy an 80ft yacht, and asked the broker "Can I get this insured", and he said "Oh yes, Somewhere in California" and wouldnt give me more information, should I be satisified? What harm it could do to actually explain the type, content and source of cover ?

Your a gracious man Rwatson, Thanks!

And I agree with you that many people dreaming of a big sub yacht are a year or two premature at best. the project is definatly in the angel phase with a goup af people working out the details.

I do see success at the end of the rain bow. But everyone has to remember that a rainbow is a big upside down hill that you have to get over to get to the other side! LOL

 

[wardd]

if its only going to snorkel depth whats the point.

under water window ports in a yacht

 

[mydauphin]

Seriously, why don't you make underwater habitats. They are lot simpler, don't have to be cylindrical, and you just tow them some place and sink them.

A lot simpler and get bugs of life support system...