Concrete submarine

[mydauphin]

The concept of concrete submarine is not new. The concept of building a large monolithic concrete structure is not new. The reality of making such a large beast to the tolerance and quality control needed are immense. In ten years of pouring concrete seawalls, I have reject many a truck for low quality mix. Also accepted many that were iffy but had to do or the whole project was screwed. The difference there was engineering was way overdone1 and there was steel in it to compensate for a little human error.

So you make your mold, pour 11 trucks one after another, you vibrate it in, but not to much or you have problem. Then the pump guy adds a little too much water or the washing of the cement mixer, or someone makes wrong mix.... There are 10 ways to have pour go totally screwed. What do you do throw away the sub if one little thing goes bad.

Did you know that on such a large pour concrete get hots, it has to be maintained in constant temperature range.

Yeah, the idea of a concrete sub is great, shoot I could build what your saying for $30,000 but Quality Control, priceless.

 

[stevevall]

those factors are considered.

As a concrete expert you know how things have to bee just right. All the factors you mentioned have been considered and care is put in during every step.
We do understand about the heat and moisture.
As an expert, you know it takes time to develop a concept. Wil,, the designer has been developing the method since the early 1990's. What I can refer you to is the website, which covers your concerns and is listed numerous times throughout these posts

 

[stevevall]

To Rwatson

Thanks for the compliment. But to let you know, I am not an engineer, I have experience in surface boats and I see the concrete subs as a live-aboard, and again not a research vessel.
First, Insurance, it has been handled in California. 622 dollars a year. I wanted to know this as well before I got involved.
The safe levels I mentioned are going to be to the point where I am not being tossed around. Do I know, exactly where that is? No, I have not done this before. Wil claims 300 meters as a safe operating depth. That to me is really deep. The sub is neutrally bouyant, so a safe way to resurface will be a release of ballast that will bring me up.
I do not have my own sub yet and believe me that I will be testing out the ability to resurface before I go into deep water.
As to the thick hulls opposed to the thinner walled typical ferrocement. We are looking at a pressure hull, as opposed to a hull that is much thinner and could not stand the pressures of a dive at all.
Why go through the trouble? Concrete has specific problems, which you have mentioned previously. I have read them. I have the time, I am retired, and I just simply like the idea and I want to be involved in solving the problems.
The bottom line in steel versus concrete is the cost. Steel is more expensive.
Also, the exterior has no maintenance requirements other than periodically scraping the hull. The prototype is still there, submerged, and a tested thick walled vessel will out live me if tunnels, bridges, and sea walls are any indicator.

 

[mydauphin]

If I won the lotto and wanted to spend the next 10 years developing idea, I would like the concrete sub idea. No Lotto, no 10 years. So instead I will try to help by giving a little experience if you will, and wish you luck.

I believe there are many problems with ideas besides insurance, moving and concrete. Obvisously is safety, interior space, engine room fumes in a sealed boat. The hard I believe long term is humidity. Even if you seal concrete on exterior with epoxy, and used high density concrete with additives. The humidity will still build tremedously inside and corrode everything and make live unbearable. Speak with any submariner and they will tell same thing. The walls will sweat, just moving air around will not solve problem.

So like a big submarine, you extensive ventilation systems, dehumidification systems and multiple compartments not something easily done in a sub that size.

Any chance at seeing interior layout of equipment?

 

[PanAmMan]

The concept of concrete submarine is not new. The concept of building a large monolithic concrete structure is not new. The reality of making such a large beast to the tolerance and quality control needed are immense. In ten years of pouring concrete seawalls, I have reject many a truck for low quality mix. Also accepted many that were iffy but had to do or the whole project was screwed. The difference there was engineering was way overdone1 and there was steel in it to compensate for a little human error.

Yeah, the idea of a concrete sub is great, shoot I could build what your saying for $30,000 but Quality Control, priceless.

Maybee that's why Will claims it cost 3 times that? LOL

I know the high rise & bridge boys always have two trucks lined up so they can reject a truck and still maintain the stringent pour schedule. Many have their own onsite wet plant. I know the ready mix plant down the road is fully automated including Q/A testing. They would only need two batches for the 11 trucks. He claims they do custom mixes all the time and has not had the gov reject a continious pour load in 2 yrs. And he says they check every single batch and load. He says that it has become a lot easier with the new high strength formulas designed specifically for continious pour without vibrating. Maintaining consistant temperature and humidity are the big challenges. He says that's where they do all their sweating now! Pun intended. LOL

On critical jobs they are frequently required to mix two batches (20 trucks!)side by side and test them both before starting the continious pour. They throw the premixed chemical packs into each truck after filling and the whole job is poured inside specific temperature and humidity range. On small jobs like a < 20 truck single pour they are required to ensure that both batches are made using materials and additives with the same lot code. Details for sure, but nothing that modern construction managment can not handle.

P.S. If they get it wrong they scrap the pour for the day! You and I get that raw cement, w/o the special chemicals, for our do it your self backyard jobs!

How overdone is the engineering on Wills boat if it stays above 100M?

My god have you seen the numbers on the new high strength fiber & rebar cont pours? I don't think it will ever see anything like the abuse a hollow 50' road span carying 50 Ton trucks hitting the bridge at >70mph will see over it's 70 year design life! Well, maybe if you ran it on the surface! LOL

But we are all guessing.
Only Will and his team know about their Q/A process.

 

[mydauphin]

It can be done, but the devil is in the details. I would first build a remote control sub and dive to max depth 10 times before I ever set foot in it.
Also all submarine go through cycling, pressure, no pressure. Unlike a concrete wall, but like a bridge. Therefore you have to build flexible joints. On a typical 300 foot wall the cap is broken into 6 sections tied together with SS dowels to allow for expansion and contraction.

I mostly pour concrete underwater using tremie method, also topside for caps. Every pour has different problems.

If were to design concrete sub I would build in sections just like real subs, and concrete piping and mechanical connect each section.

The other problem in the one pour method is getting equipment in sub before pour otherwise you cant get big equipment in thru hatch.

 

[PanAmMan]

The hard I believe long term is humidity. Even if you seal concrete on exterior with epoxy, and used high density concrete with additives. The humidity will still build tremedously inside and corrode everything and make live unbearable. Speak with any submariner and they will tell same thing. The walls will sweat, just moving air around will not solve problem.

So like a big submarine, you extensive ventilation systems, dehumidification systems and multiple compartments not something easily done in a sub that size.

Any chance at seeing interior layout of equipment?

Mydauphin, your right! It's all about the dew point! And that concrete sub hull is going to spend a lot of time below it in SF unless you heat and or insulate the hull.

Heating the hull can get expensive unless you apply an insulating rubber coating to the outside. A very small solar portable panel is a green way to keep the whole sub heated above the dew point. Something your going to end up doing just to prevent the thing from feeling like a meat locker in SF anyway! LOL

In locations where the water temperature and humidity are high like florida and the caribian, your going to need to dehumidify the air even when the sub is sealed to remove the "small" amount of moisture that gets by the rubber coating. this is actually a lot easier then a typical yatch that has a million infusion points for humid air. But you still need a continious system to keep the humidity down while it is sealed up. You will need a much larger plant to address the humidity that is taken in while using the snorkle. that is the number one reason for having separate snorkle for the cabin and engine areas. People use about 21 cuft per hour, engines use 10 to 1000 times that.

Just route the snorkel air through the A/C heat pump system before entering the cabin. Have your contractor use an independant control for the electric heating element or an engine heating element. This will provide very good comfort in a wide range of applications. the decision to run the A/C from the engines or electric is up to your engine selection. But you will need an independant and redundant dehumidifier to keep the sub dry while sealed up.

I would also sugest you investigate the appropriate anti fungal paints to treat the inside of the hull berfore you fit it out! I hear this was effective with concrete boats.

this part of the design is going to need serious work if you plan to maintain a healthy and comfortable living space!

Good luck!

 

[stevevall]

the new input

Since I started posting for the company, a lot of serious people have begun adding to the content. All this is really appreciated as to the problems associated to what is really a new idea. Not to discount the 20 years Wil has put into this, but even that is relatively short.
To me, I have to like the idea of something to put my all into it. Just a quick example as to how I feel about it in regards to my living situation, which is applicable to a sub, as no one that I know of has actually considered living for a long time on a sub.
One of the most important things I am hearing are associated with long-term human occupancy. The majority of the time, if this is your home, will be on the surface. It has to be comfortable, which brings me back to the original anecdote.
I have had larger sailboats, in fact, I just sold a 36 Leeboard Hereshoff, and bought a 26 foot Parker Dawson center cockpit with dual cabins. What is going to be a major consideration is going to be making the space available, at least to dual function. That is what I have done in my current boat, in which I hope to have for a long time. I use the aft cabin for a storage/work area, and the main cabin is used for living. Although boater's can relate, a lot of people cannot live like this. However, I can sleep comfortably, even when my Girlfriend visits. Additionally, I can work at my desk, where I am now, fill my coffee cup, cook breakfast, and look out my companionway at the activities in the Delta.
Sometimes, you just have to like something and go with how you feel. The fact that the concrete subs Wil makes are bare inside, (except for the control areas) lets me imagine what I can do to duplicate what I have here. It does have it's challenges, and even call them problems to get away from sales semantics.
The bottom line is that I like the idea. I hope I didn't come off as too idealist to ignore everything else that comes with it.

 

[Submarine Tom]

Steve (and Wil),

Smartest thing I've seen Wil do yet is get you on the keyboard!

The dialogue has matured 10 fold! Good work. Good luck.

I'd be interested to know more about you. What is your sales background,

what are your hobbies, interests. What are your major concerns about the

200T sub? What languages do you speak? English is not your first

language. Do you have a Canadian representative yet?

Cheers, Tom

 

[wardd]

if i had a concrete sub i'd need a flying car to tow it to the water

 

[PanAmMan]

Great posts Guys!

Now the information is flowing both ways again.
Thats' what a forum is for!

Of course that's just my opinion


MyDauphin: I agree with the remote control dive test.(s)
The easiest way would be to do it unpowered with a simple ballast control to accomplish 9 dives and re-surfacings to max depth + 20% (half of design depth!).

On the 10th dive flood the ballast and then demonstrate the automatic external ballast drop at safety depth. Just make sure the area is clear because who know where that sub will come up and how fast! The good news is that concrete will not gain boyancy as it rises!

If you do that with static internal ballast at max gross weight and all the through hulls in place you have demonstrated both hull integrity and Inherent safety!

If it were me i would add a 50% flooded test of the drop ballast to make sure you can drop ballast in a flooding environment and still make the surface!

Great posts guys!

 

[stevevall]

thanks

Tom,
Thanks for the compliment, I think the local connection helps. My background. I worked LAPD from 1981-1991. I wanted to see if other areas were different as far as crime and enforcement, so I went as far away as I could and worked for GFPD, in Great Falls Montana for a couple of years. It wasn't different, just different people.
When I got out of law enforcement, I started to travel and study, and got my degree in History. I really enjoy history, from architecture to old boats. Europe had great appeal in that respect, and I found myself there a couple of times. Through my University here, I was even able to go to Cuba. I also like finding and restoring old sailboats. That is what got me from LA to Stockton. Stockton is on the Delta and connects to Sacramento and San Francisco Bay.
One of my passions for the longest time has been Falconry, and I have been a licensed falconer since I was 15. Falconry is pretty demanding and has a compulsive nature. I have spent hours either working with a new bird or a bird that was injured and given to me for rehabilitation. This kind of limits your ability to travel. When you own a falcon or hawk you cannot just leave it with a neighbor for six months at a time. Also, it is not fair to your bird. The best hunting birds that I have seen were flown every day. Just having a falcon sitting around because you legally can is not falconry, it is pet keeping. Additionally, the LA area where I flew was becoming one city to another, and I would spend even more hours finding an area that was open enough to fly.
From 2000, I found myself spending less time wanting to hunt with Birds of Prey, and more time either teaching others, learning more about captive breeding, (which really took off and is the main way falconers acquire their birds), or watching the hundreds of webcams in which you can view wild falcons, mostly Peregrines. I could talk for hours about this. It is amazing that captive bred Peregrines, raised and released from buildings in urban areas are returning to the same site to raise their own young. Last point on this. I am proud to say that many of the kids I knew and grew up with are now involved with captive breeding and release programs. There was a time when we could only dream about seeing a Peregrine Falcon as they were extinct as a breeding species in the lower 48. Because of these people, and captive breeding, Peregrines are now breeding in huge numbers in every major city.
Back to subs. I think for a lot of us, subs are a common dream. They were for me, but way out of my price range, and as a live-aboard, they were generally unsuitable. I started emailing Wil with my questions and asked what I could do to help. I am not a salesman, but if I like something, even though it has unproven aspects, I will want one of my own, and I will talk a lot about it. I don't think there is anyone who has owned a submarine, in which they could travel comfortably, and live aboard. That is the possibility I see in Concrete "yacht" subs. I suppose, with the right amount of money, one could have a steel submarine designed as a live-aboard, but it would be very expensive. Although some say the blimp style hulls that Wil designs are not very efficient. But from what I have learned so far, the shape of the pressure hull is very strong, which like a Roman arch or an egg, can take large amounts of equal pressure. It also has a lot of interior space.
I like it. I will test it out for myself and see how I can make it fit in with my lifestyle.
You asked about sales people in Canada? No, I think I am the first in North America. You will have to talk to Wil about working with us, but I know that he is going to want subs to show people. I have spoken to Wil about my plans of continuing to travel. If I can do it in a Concrete Sub, I am sure he would want someone else doing the same thing.
Thanks again for the compliment, I am sure Wil will appreciate it as well,
Steve

 

[rwatson]

First, Insurance, it has been handled in California. 622 dollars a year. I wanted to know this as well before I got involved. .

Ok - could you let me know who the insurance firm is, and what they are 'insuring'? have you read the policy ?

As to the thick hulls opposed to the thinner walled typical ferrocement. We are looking at a pressure hull, as opposed to a hull that is much thinner and could not stand the pressures of a dive at all.
Why go through the trouble? Concrete has specific problems, which you have mentioned previously. I have read them. I have the time, I am retired, and I just simply like the idea and I want to be involved in solving the problems.
The bottom line in steel versus concrete is the cost. Steel is more expensive.
.

I dont underatnd any of this logic. I bet the extra work on the concrete is way more expensive than processing steel for less than 200- metre dives. Any QA requirements would also be double that of steel. Can you provide detailed costing tables on the two methods ?

Also, the exterior has no maintenance requirements other than periodically scraping the hull. The prototype is still there, submerged, and a tested thick walled vessel will out live me if tunnels, bridges, and sea walls are any indicator.

Thats just plain wrong - ask any Ferro Cement Boats owner, sea wall builder etc etc. Not only are they constantly being eroded by the harsh environment, they often dont show any failures on the outside for a long time. Also, bridges and sea walls are waaaay over engineered, which you cant do on a sub due to hydrostatic concerns.

Re- PanAmMans comments on my attitude about 'contributing'.
I dont have any solutions to Wils 'problem'.

I do have a lot of issues about solving a challenge using the most problematic methods possible.

If I wanted to build a boat that could dive deep enough to see underwater (a noble enough goal, I agree), I consider concrete as one of the real 'outside' methods, and I would need a lot better reason than the dubious 'cost' and 'maintenance' issues, especially given the 'death' and 'survival' issues raised by much more competant contributers in this thread.

I have been involved with the building, design and maintenance issues of large naval seagoing vessels, on and off for many years. I have a collection of the tens of thousands of 'issues' that have to be addrressed in the building, checking, operation of these vessels.

In a project like this, I believe that you have to wear the 'Black Hat', (Edward de Bono speaking) a long time before you can put on the 'Yellow Hat' of Optimism.

Thats what 'grumpy old mean' do best - protect their lives and wallets.

 

[stevevall]

ideas

Just to keep this in the direction I want to go, and that is in the possibilities. I would like to ask about alternate methods of charging the batteries. I like the idea of a self contained system that requires no additional power source other than a battery powered engine and an efficient means of charging. I do not know much about the current technology or the real life applications of either bicycle generated power, or wind generators. I know their are a lot of people trying to find a way to keep a large battery array charged to capacity. But is this merely wishful thinking or a reality?
I have a stationary bike on board, and I ride about an hour a day. Do we have the technology to actually produce the amount of power necessary to keep batteries charged to capacity with this method? This could be a message to those of you that keep up with the technology.
There was a question posed to me about my concerns about a 200 ton sub. This is applicable to any boat, and that is inertia and currents. Anybody with any common sense would make sure that they know about the methods of controlling and stopping. This would be the same with submersibles. The first thing that comes to mind is the video of the tanker that plowed into a marina out of control. Even small boats can cause an enormous amount of monetary damages.
So, being trained in how to control what ever size boat immediately comes to mind. I don't know yet, but maybe a sub of any size would give a false sense of security. Just the visual aspect that even on the top of the water, a large portion is not visible may contribute to this. This should be looked into in detail for anyone stepping on any submarine for the first time. Some of the specifics as to control surfaces are on the website. Learning about the differences between surface and submersibles is a big deal to me.

 

[Submarine Tom]

Pedal Power

Steve,

I heard from Wil and responded, thanks.

Your average Joe will produce about 200 watts comfortably for an hour or so.

Unfortunately it doesn't go up much if you're in really good shape, maybe 250 watts.

Now short bursts are up to 350 watts but only for 5 - 10 minutes respectively.

I do have to laugh though, because I hate those bikes and would much rather be riding on the road let alone in a confined space.

But hey, whatever floats your boat!

Tom.