34th America's Cup: multihulls!

[powerabout]

So ?

My sailing club doesnt allow multihulls. They take up too much space.

folding tri's anyone?

 

[michael pierzga]

Floor space, space on the floating pontoon and launching facilities are simply too small. Many sailing clubs are the same.

If your a multihull sailor its youre responsibilty to do your homework and find out if multihulls are permitted at the club.

 

[powerabout]

I'm a member of a club that is concerned with the environment so no antifoul and no boats with lead
I think we have a minimum speed as well..
If its not a folding multi then 2 members have to own it and use their 2 space allocations
lol

 

[michael pierzga]

You cant create good racing and a vibrant club house if the fleet is too small. All clubs face the same problem.

My club sticks with Optis, Lasers, Snipes and 49ers. The mix is enough give young, old and sporty types a class start with more than 6 boats.

 

[oldsailor7]

High on Carbon.
When I was in the Toronto Multihull Cruising Club. We used to race in CYRA and the RCYC was, of course, a member of CYRA . I don't remember any bias.
I remember CYRA raced all types of sail boats regardless of type.
They simply raced in four separate classes, each class starting five minutes apart, smallest boats first and Multis last. Each of the twelve clubs hosted a race during the 12 weeks of the racing season and all the boats rafted up at each clubs docks after each race and celebrated with a few beers and dinner as appropriate. The beautiful 60ft C&C yacht "Bonaventure" was always beaten (boat for boat) by our Buccaneer 28, and after the races all the "Winch Apes" from Bonaventure would come aboard our boat with their tinnies to chat up my all girl crew.
They were fun days in the mid 1970's

 

[powerabout]

You cant create good racing and a vibrant club house if the fleet is too small. All clubs face the same problem.

My club sticks with Optis, Lasers, Snipes and 49ers. The mix is enough give young, old and sporty types a class start with more than 6 boats.

Ive noticed you need 12 boats to get 6 on the water at any one time

 

[SteveMellet]

Ive noticed you need 12 boats to get 6 on the water at any one time

Whereas if you are a multihull sailor, you only need 6 boats to get 12 hulls on the water at any one time .

 

[Mikko Brummer]

Let's say the top section is 10x higher above the water than the bottom section. Now add 10 units of lift at the bottom section, and add -1 units of lift at the top section.
Net heeling moment change = 0
Net overall lift change = +9

This is grossly oversimplified since the induced drag will increase, and the profile drag may increase as well, so the boat may end up being slower after the change. But this load-redistribution strategy is effective if done in moderation. The overall optimum load distribution shape depends on many factors, including the fraction of drag from the hull or foils, the effect of boat speed on righting moment, etc. I doubt that the true optimum distribution has reverse loading at the top, but I wouldn't bet against it.

I fully agree, and was aware of the lever effect. I was simply trying to point out that the wing is not a wonder toy - if 1/3 or 1/2 of it is producing reverse loading, there's not much left to drive the boat. And that soft sails also can make use of reverse loading at the top. In fact they do, all the time, even if only intermittently, when the boat gets righting moment limited - else you could not sail a Finn or a Star in a breeze. From Sail shape & aerodynamics

"In extreme conditions, it is advantageous to allow the top "reverse" completely a part of the time, providing a negative heeling force (lift to windward), supporting the boat with a large lever. This allows to produce much more lift down low and you end up with more drive for a given heeling moment. However, before the sail starts to backwind you want to flatten it as much as possible. Backwinding not only pushes the boat back but also tends to increase weather helm, usually a problem in heavy air."

As a sidenote, reverse loading as an optimal trim condition for a sailboat is not a novelty spurred by wing sails. As I remember I first read about it in the Journal of Applied Mathematics in late 70's. I recall Tom Speer suggesting another source as first, but I think the Maths Journal paper was before Tom's source.

 

[powerabout]

Whereas if you are a multihull sailor, you only need 6 boats to get 12 hulls on the water at any one time .

good one.

 

[CT 249]

Be careful quoting Scientists who do not support the 'party line.'

I get attacked regularly (on my blog). For some reason, we have moved away from traditional education and skepticism to unbridled enthusiasm for new 'truths.'

Laviolette also claims that the tarot and astrology are correct, and that antigravity exists and has been suppressed by North American aircraft engineers.

Obviously new paradigms and breakthroughs occur, but obviously there are also people who are just plain wrong.

 

[CT 249]

High On Carbon: C-class sailor, wing nut, foiling guy, even when it is physically painful, proud supporter of Leftfield thinking!!!

In my own club, The Royal Canadian Yacht Club, I was subject to years of bias, and outright prejudice against multihulls for starters. Many moons ago I was doing an Olympic Tornado campaign with my brother, and we brought our boat to the club for training. One day I was approached by a very upset commodore who insisted that there was no way in hell a Catamaran could be allowed to stay at the YC and it had to be removed immediately, they were simply not allowed there.

"But commodore" I protested, "The RCYC has a long standing policy that any and all Olympic classes are automatically endorsed fleets of the yacht club and shall be accorded the rights and privileges of other designated classes".

Commodore: "That may be so, but there's no such thing as an Olympic class catamaran, get that thing out of here!"

Now this was around 1988, the Tornado had been part of the Games for some time.

I nodded and smiled and said we would deal with it as soon as possible. Shortly thereafter, I left an article in his mailbox outlining the previous and future Olympics that would feature Tornado's as part of the Olympic sailing discipline. Somehow, the issue was never mentioned again to me.

The next Catamaran to grace our club property was Patient Lady some 16 years later. It too was met with a great deal of scorn, raised eyebrows and suspicion by many of the "established" members. It was interesting to watch the attitudes evolve over time as we developed new boats and went on to be involved in some pretty cool projects. some of the prejudice still persists, but after many years of having an "open tent" policy about our work shed we won people over to the idea that developing new technology does not have to be something that "other people do" nor is it something that "Always happens somewhere else". Many members started paying regular visits to see what they could learn and to show off to their friends the "latest technology in the sport".

So my experience is that for the most part, it is simply a lack of understanding that drives prejudicial thinking. When people do not enjoy firsthand exposure to new things they can be quite skeptical about what it means to them. In sailing I find this to be very true because people have learned a very complicated skill set (Sailing and racing sail boats) over a very long period of time, and something radically new threatens their "expertise" in the discipline. This shakes up the social order of things and they tend to think that their expertise will be diminished and in turn so will their social rank. This is what really threatens people.

I cannot wait to see what will threaten my "expertise" in the future.

Yes, people who abuse and are threatened by a certain type of craft and those who love them are distressing, and distressingly common.

The president of the cat class I used to sail called dinghies "shitters", despite the fact that he raced at a club that had been formed by and for dinghy sailors.

The skipper of the tri I used to sail called monohull yachts "shitboxes", despite the fact that he raced at a club that had been formed by monohullers of a different breed.

There's people here who abuse those who prefer monos as being "luddites" or similar terms. It's a bugger that people can be so closed-minded as to insult other boats and those who love them.

My experience is that for the most part, it can be a lack of empathy and humility that drives prejudicial thinking. When people assume that their own tastes are superior, they can be quite skeptical about the reasons others love different craft. For example many people in other disciplines and sports love the feeling of leaning over (cyclists and motorcyclists love leaning into turns, surfers, skiers and skaters love slanting over to carve turns, small cat sailors loved doing the wild thing instead of running deeper at better VMG, gymnasts, parcour enthusiasts etc love twisting and leaning, etc etc etc). But despite the fact that so many people LOVE sports gear that leans over, some seem to feel that boats that don't lean are inherently better, instead of just different.

And as you say, there is social rank involved. Some people seem to slag off other types of craft (or those of us who love and respect all sailing craft) just so that they can feel superior to those who sail them. I know people who think that their boat is superior because it's faster than other boats but then drive slow cars and ride slow bikes. They don't think that their car or bike is inferior because they are slower than other cars or bikes (nor should they) but it does seem hypocritical for them to think that speed equals superiority in some things but not in others.

There are clubs in my old area that practice disgraceful bias against certain craft. They ban all monos and only permit multis to race. My own father, I am ashamed to say, was involved in forming such a club....I suppose that made him a bad person. The cat club he helped form would not allow me to race my dinghy or my windsurfers. Such bigotry!*

I understand that there is even a famous class in which brilliant people generously share information to create amazing sailing machines, but which allows only allows cats and bans tris and proas. How can such horrible things occur?

I do have two serious questions, though; in how many sports or games do clubs NOT have restrictions on the types of gear that they permit?

Secondly, in what way is a club only for monos any worse than a club only for multis, or only for shorthanded racing, or only for kites, or only for windsurfers, or only for mountainbikes, or only for road bicycles, or only for motorbikes, or just for chess, watercolours, opera or any of the myriad other forms of human activity for which people form specialist bodies?????


* BTW this was NOT KCC, which encourages cats but is open to other forms of sailing unlike many multihull clubs.

 

[oldsailor7]

Lol Chris.
That Club Was Actually Formed By Motor Boaters.

 

[powerabout]

being someone that swings both ways one of the big issues I can see is the old lead belly sailors have no where near the skills to sail a boat that can sail in apparent and when a apparent sailor gets on their boat they always sail them downwind way faster.

 

[powerabout]

Lol Chris.
That Club Was Actually Formed By Motor Boaters.

could you run a yacht club without boats with engines these days???
Does everyone miss the irony that the powerboats rescue the sail boats and not the other way around?

 

[oldsailor7]

Does everyone miss the irony that the powerboats rescue the sail boats and not the other way around?

HOW TRUE.