34th America's Cup: multihulls!

[xarax]

Oh, and for the record, I think that control system design should be unrestricted, both for safety's sake and because of the difficulty noted above of defining "manual" and "automatic." If you are going to race go-fast flying machines, deliberately introducing unknown risk by crippling control mechanisms is beyond stupid.

Personally, I have not made my mind yet on this matter... As much as I admire technological innovations, and clever, efficient solutions like the stability control system that was NOT installed on US Oracle ( "evidently","hard work" was all that was needed ! ), I am not sure that people are going to accept them so easily. They resisted to the introduction of multihulls and foils which, at the end of the day, are simple devises they were able to understand - why will they accept something they will not ?
Somebody in a previous post had said that, nowadays, the general public is not required any more to understand the inner workings of what they use, in order to accept it... I am not sure that this will be the case in the prospect of a fully automatic foil control system on board of a sailboat, even if it will be required for security reasons. They will just say "Let us restrict the maximum speed, built smaller, less sophisticated and slower sailboats, so we will get rid of those extra-sailing devises...". - to most people, sailing is supposed to be a "traditional" sport, and not a "high-tech" sport, like F1, for example. Those flying boats are already too "high-tech" regarding their structure for many sailors, so I am afraid that if they will become too 'high-tech" regarding their control, too, they will have a hard time to find the much broader audience we all wish.

 

[Gary Baigent]

Well, there's a certain genuflecting-to-wealth cabal here who are real believers, sycophantic wannabe friends with Ellison and co ... and then there are a few others who are questioning the miraculous performance turnaround Oracle achieved.
The latter smell dead rodents.
And so they should knowing the contaminated Oracle history.

 

[oldsailor7]

Quote:- " to most people, sailing is supposed to be a "traditional" sport, and not a "high-tech" sport, like F1, for example. Those flying boats are already too "high-tech" regarding their structure for many sailors, so I am afraid that if they will become too 'high-tech" regarding their control, too, they will have a hard time to find the much broader audience WE ALL WISH.--"Quote.

What a load of garbage! ---speak for yourself. The advance of technology should, and never will be, restrained. I keep referring to the Luddites, a perfect example.

 

[xarax]

Quote:- " to most people, sailing is supposed to be a "traditional" sport, and not a "high-tech" sport, like F1, for example. Those flying boats are already too "high-tech" regarding their structure for many sailors, so I am afraid that if they will become too 'high-tech" regarding their control, too, they will have a hard time to find the much broader audience WE ALL WISH.--"Quote.

What a load of garbage! ---speak for yourself. The advance of technology should, and never will be, restrained. I keep referring to the Luddites, a perfect example.

I have to say just this : Even if you are allowed to completely miss my point ( for Ellison s sake, you had not understood a word ! ), you are NOT allowed to "quote" what I said, after you deliberately make changes in my own words, spelling, quotation marks, etc... If you have not yet understood how to quote a post of a member, are you sure you will be able to understand what a stability system is ?

Read my lips :

They will just say "Let us restrict the maximum speed, built smaller, less sophisticated and slower sailboats, so we will get rid of those extra-sailing devises...". - to most people, sailing is supposed to be a "traditional" sport, and not a "high-tech" sport, like F1, for example. Those flying boats are already too "high-tech" regarding their structure for many sailors, so I am afraid that if they will become too 'high-tech" regarding their control, too, they will have a hard time to find the much broader audience we all wish.

P.S. If you really wish to intervene to what I said, just report my post to the moderator, as some other "polite" fans that are talking only about "ideas" had already done (*) - you will probably be able to <remove> any part of it you do not like, so your convincing powers would be ameliorated, indeed !
So much for the land of the free and the home of the brave...

(*) See censorship in action at post 3848, page 257.

 

[Boat Design Net Moderator]

xarax, if you want to discuss factual information about the America's Cup or discuss ideas regarding the boats, technology, etc., this is a great place. But the forum shouldn't be used as a vehicle to insult others or attack other people's character. It would be better if you took that kind of thing to a different venue or facebook. Thanks for helping keep the forums polite and respecting others.

 

[powerabout]

I think the kiwis had the automatic system and the Yanks had a manual system, the manual being superior as humans can anticipate and a computer cannot ( unless there is a pattern it can follow like Dynamic Positioning modeling does)
I think the Kiwi's also got blinded by the 'winged keel syndrome'

 

[xarax]

Thanks for helping keep the forums polite and respecting others.

Thank you for your help, to keep the forum polite :

You're making a pitiful *** of yourself.

...AND to censor my posts, while you congratulate de facto people that respect others :

What a load of garbage! ---speak for yourself.

P.S. It would not be such a bad idea if you start READING my 45 ( ! ) recent posts on the issue of the stability system used by US Oracle (*1)(*2), starting from post #3657, p.244. Then, you will probably learn who "discuss [his own] ideas regarding the boats, technology, etc," and who is just shouting and parroting other people s commercials ...

(*1)

In the press conference Oracle was asked about their "stability augmentation system" and didn't deny there was one nor did they go into any detail.

(*2)

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americ...-system/115070
This is for me the first plausible explanation of the miracle that US17 changed from a pitching, unstable boat over night into a vessel that sails steady like running on railway tracks. The question is whether they employed a closed loop controlled hydraulic system for the trimming of the hydrofoils (the emphasis is on "closed loop"). If this was the case, then the Kiwis had no chance at all, it is like fighting with bow and arrow against a machine-gun. A few years ago I designed and developed closed loop hydraulic control systems for race car drivers. These systems react within a few milliseconds, at least 10 times faster, than any human being can do. The question whether the hydraulic power ist constantly supplied by the grinders or stored in an accumulator is irrelevant for the performance of the system. If such a system is allowed, one might ask why TNZ did not have it.

 

[Doug Lord]

Thank you for your help, to keep the forum polite :



...AND to censor my posts, while you congratulate de facto people that respect others :



P.S. It would not be such a bad idea if you start READING my 45 ( ! ) recent posts on the issue of the stability system used by US Oracle (*1)(*2), starting from post #3657, p.244. Then, you will probably learn who "discuss [his own] ideas regarding the boats, technology, etc," and who is just shouting and parroting other people s commercials ...

(*1)

(*2)

=======================
The uninformed speculation in sail-world was based on no actual information and was as speculative as are your comments. Time and again everyone connected with Oracle has repeated that there was no illegal system on board and pointed out that the boat was inspected at least once a day throughout the racing and at no time was any illegal device found on board. Further, all Oracle systems were inspected by the measurers and/or the Jury and found to be legal.
Even some members of TNZ have said that they are convinced the Oracle won fair and square.
If you have any evidence that all these people were lying or cheating you should present it. But if all you have is uninformed speculation with no reputable backup sources you should stop the character assassination of the Oracle Team members, their management, America's Cup measurer's and Jury all who have passed on the legality of the Oracle boat.
Any "opinion" of yours that calls into question the reliability and truthfullness of this group of people with no provable hard evidence from any source is nothing but slander and inappropriate for a boat design forum, in my opinion.
You need to cut it out!

 

[P Flados]

Xarax,

The "magic bullet" enhancement to 17 is being dismissed and/or laughed at by a lot of people with either first or second hand knowledge. I really have a hard time imagining that they could pull off a fancy hidden control system for altitude control. I also have a really hard time that they could have had a fancy altitude control system that was not hidden but that has not been "exposed" and confirmed.

The biggest "enhancement" to the boat mid race seems to have been a better rudder to stabilizer joint. It may not seem like a big deal, but considering the cavitation discussions, it may have mattered more than many would think.

The biggest overall performance enhancement seems to be wing trim / load balance between the dagger board and rudder for the upwind runs.

The way I see it, in the month or so before the finals, OR was overconfident in their boat speed but were severely distracted by other stuff. Sometimes they looked good before the finals sometimes they looked bad. Not knowing they were behind and not focusing on getting their act together almost cost them the cup.

After a couple of races they were still disorganized by the loss of their wing trimmer and were shocked by ETNZ performance.

They struggled to come with a solution at first, but then they made the additional crew change and they started trying stuff between races when ever they got the chance.

They fixed their rudder cavitation problem (I am not sure when, it may have been earlier than the other change), and fixed their trim issue for upwind foiling. At this point they saw the potential to go from loosing the upwind to winning it. The team latched onto the improvements and their confidence jumped. They focused on good execution and started winning.

If you are convinced a fancy altitude control had to be the difference (against all current indications), your need to try come up with something more credible to base it on and/or explain to us how they could have pulled it off. Otherwise most all knowledgeable / rational observers will just dismiss your posts as "the rantings of a (insert your choice here)".

 

[troy2000]

Well, there's a certain genuflecting-to-wealth cabal here who are real believers, sycophantic wannabe friends with Ellison and co ... and then there are a few others who are questioning the miraculous performance turnaround Oracle achieved.
The latter smell dead rodents.
And so they should knowing the contaminated Oracle history.

Sure, that's it: we're just genuflecting to wealth. We're all sticking up for Oracle in the desperate hope that Larry Ellison will see our posts, and ask us to become part of his posse and hang out with him. There isn't the faintest chance in !@#$ that we're simply giving our honest opinions -- instead of beating up on someone because we resent his money and his success, like some people might do.

I smell something too; it's wafting on the breeze from your direction. But I'm pretty sure it isn't dead rats....

 

[upchurchmr]

Its a pity an interesting thread has been destroyed by one person.
Gone.

 

[xarax]

Time and again everyone connected with Oracle has repeated that there was no illegal system on board and pointed out that the boat was inspected at least once a day throughout the racing and at no time was any illegal device found on board. Further, all Oracle systems were inspected by the measurers and/or the Jury and found to be legal.!

Compete weakness of any argument. Irrelevant. I had never said anything like this ! Obviously, you can not read my posts, and you repeat the same things, like an automaton ! Read my lips ( post 3858) :
"We had used nothing illegal, we have been measured all the time"( third line of defence ).

If you have any evidence that all these people were lying or cheating you should present it..!

It becomes really amusing !
Do you really believe that by adding this "all" to "these people", makes your argument stronger ?
If I say they are lying, I guess my post would be <removed>... - so I should say that they are not saying the whole truth. To make it even more "politically correct" I should better say that I do not believe them ! Am I allowed to declare even this, I wonder... N0 ? Then, I do believe them, I do believe them, I do believe them, I do believe them ( do YOU believe ME now ? )
Of course, I never said that they cheated by using a clever and efficient system, that was not prohibited by the rules, probably most similar, but just a little better, than the one TNZ had used - because they, too, had used some sort of foil adjusting system, you can be sure about it, even if it was proved to be less sophisticated than the "direct". "manual" system "all those people" used - but nobody dares to admit it !

you should stop the character assassination of the Oracle Team members, their management !

I have the sad duty to inform you that they do not need my help...They had committed character suicide by themselves, when...<removed> by me, because I do not enjoy throwing stones in this glasshouse...

You need to cut it out!

No, YOU need me to cut it out, because...<removed> by me, because...<removed> by me, because ...<removed> by me, because.... <removed. by me because....

THAT is an automatic self-iterating system ! So, now you have learned how the stability control system that US Oracle has NOT installed on board works ! Do you see any decision making in this by any intelligent human being ? If yes, I am intelligent. If not, it is automatic, indeed...

 

[troy2000]

Personally, I have not made my mind yet on this matter... As much as I admire technological innovations, and clever, efficient solutions like the stability control system that was NOT installed on US Oracle ( "evidently","hard work" was all that was needed ! ), I am not sure that people are going to accept them so easily. They resisted to the introduction of multihulls and foils which, at the end of the day, are simple devises they were able to understand - why will they accept something they will not ?
Somebody in a previous post had said that, nowadays, the general public is not required any more to understand the inner workings of what they use, in order to accept it... I am not sure that this will be the case in the prospect of a fully automatic foil control system on board of a sailboat, even if it will be required for security reasons. They will just say "Let us restrict the maximum speed, built smaller, less sophisticated and slower sailboats, so we will get rid of those extra-sailing devises...". - to most people, sailing is supposed to be a "traditional" sport, and not a "high-tech" sport, like F1, for example. Those flying boats are already too "high-tech" regarding their structure for many sailors, so I am afraid that if they will become too 'high-tech" regarding their control, too, they will have a hard time to find the much broader audience we all wish.

I'm not sure how we're going to keep sailing 'traditional,' when we're looking at foiling catamarans with wing sails. It's like saying race cars should use solid rubber tires, ditch the rear view mirrors, and get rid of fuel injection and power steering.

I don't think the average guy who tuned in to watch the America's Cup knew or cared about the systems on board. He didn't say to himself, "gee. I'm not watching that.... they might be allowing those boats to use modern control technology, and that totally spoils the fun of watching them scream across the Bay with their hulls clear out of the water."

On a personal level, my expertise and boat building skills are rooted deeper in the 19th century than the 21st. And don't get me started about my budget... But I admire what Ellison and his opponents created with this America's Cup, instead of resenting them for being out of my league.

add: I'm not mocking the question of how much technology should be allowed; I think it's a legitimate and reasonable one. It needs to be explored. But it's also an ever-moving target, and any rules regarding it are necessarily going to be arbitrary ones.

 

[powerabout]

too true Troy

I'm only 20 years old and therefore I know you can only win an AC if Coutts is on your side..thats true isnt it?
lol

 

[El_Guero]

Yeah. I'm not hung up on the nationalities involved; I'd have been just as impressed had the other team reeled off a string of victories instead. I think they hit their stride and started getting the most out of their boat earlier; it's just that eventually there was more to be gotten out of Oracle's boat.

I agree, and I think Xarax is hung up for a reason he is not admitting to.

Had ETNZ won, using Oracle's ship, he would not have complained - IMHO.

That is sad, because Oracle may employed a lot of Kiwis, just like ETNZ ....