Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

From Julian Bethwaite on DA:

In my very opening comments, my concern is not about wing masts other than they are one of a number of issues facing the moth class today.

What concerns me is that a number of people, maybe far dumber than the preset assembled moth sailors Exc have had a go a restricting what are outwardly open development classes and the results are not what a purist like me, would consider a resonable result.

Again taking the 18teen for a example. Are the guys who wins a JJ today as good as the guys who won it pre mid 90s. Absoutly, but they are winning a different title, they have different strengths.

The Hot House Flowers (18teens) simply are not producing any world worthly designers any more! They use to produce a very significant proportion and some of the more notable nmes.

Farr, Lexan, Murray.

What concerns me, is the moth may make the same mistake!

I like the other person a few post back just want the moth class to remain what we have all hope and aspired it to be.

If you want to have a conversation about a particular aspect, start a thread, see where you end up, I wont be commenting.

A very old adage, "if it aint broke, don't fix it."

The moth class is anything but broke, its booming, and it has just gone through about the most radical change one could imagine.

I just hope to see the free spirit in which it was conceived continue and prosper!

What I dread, and the reason for me butting in, is I don't want to see what happen to the 18teen happen to the moth!

The Exc have done exactly the right things, you pay lots of money to ISAF, Jason Smithwick & Simon Forbes are very smart boys, I'm sure he will serve you well.Julian

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

gulari on DA:

Posted Today, 11:59 AM

hey everyone. i'm feeling pretty bad that things are sort of spiraling here. i want to make a couple comments.

obviously i've put a ton of work in on these wings and am extremely anxious to go race with them. but just as important as the sailing is the relationships of the people in this class. i don't want to damage that, more than anything. if there is anything i've said that has done that, i deeply apologize.

someone i respect very much reminded me yesterday of the importance of being a leader as well as a competitor. i'm going to do my best to live up to that and i'm going to do my best to keep in mind why we're all here: we love racing these little expensive boats around at absurd speeds. i have a lot of friends on both sides of this issue and i want to do everything i can to make sure they stay my friends. the friendships i've made in this class are worth far more to me than my world championship or anything else. yea, I don't agree with the way some things have been handled, but the more important thing is that i do fully respect that everyone is a volunteer here and is working hard at helping manage our sport. we're all really keen and it's easy for discussion on the internet like this to turn ugly. i'm going to do my best to keep it from doing that and i would respectfully ask that everyone do the same as well.

most of all, i don't want to do anything to damage the moth class. i think we are the best class in sailing for a good reason and I hope we can preserve that even through the disagreements about rules stuff. there is a massive amount of work gone into hosting the worlds in Belmont and I know I am as eager to get there and go sailing as everyone.

bora

wetandreckless.blogspot.com

US international moth site

"More money than brains"-Warren F. Jones

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

Phil S on DA:

Posted Today, 02:59 PM

"Our class has grown very quickly in the past 5 years because they are great boats, it has been run well and also because people like AMAC invested heavilly in production boats in the promise of that growth.
That has bought media attention and the consequent attention of all the forum/couch moth sailors like a lot of the peole on SA. Moth sailing has become a media event, and we are fortunate that we have sponsors ZHIK and SP for Belmont who are assisting with media production and management so the voluteer moth administration can get on with running and sailing in the regatta, which is what the class is really about anyway.
How the rules are managed should be left to the class. It does not need all this adverse publicity. Let the systems work and the moth sailors decide."

Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

From the Moth Class Pres published on DA:

Dear National IMCA Presidents,

Many of you will be aware that the Executive Committee has been in discussion with ISAF for some time now over the legality of wing sails that could be presented at the World Championships next month.

As of today the only solid wing sails that will be presented is the ‘Object 2 skiff works’ version to be sailed by Bora Gulari & George Peet.
See pictures here: http://www.thmartine...ioID=229&stat=1

All other proposed designs have been scrapped for now awaiting a more concrete outcome on legality before committing to build a wing.

ISAF / IMCA Decisions
ISAF have come back to us and said they cannot make an interpretation on the wing sails presented because to do so, given their configuration, would require ISAF to make some new definitions or new rules within the class rules and that, they feel, is not their role under the various regulations in force.

Therefore we are left with the following 2 options:


We issue an amendment to the Notice of Race which amends the class rules to allow the 2 wing sails to race. ISAF have said they will approve this amendment and it would not be subject to protest.
We do nothing and the 2 wing sails will not be allowed to race in the Worlds.

As Option 1 would in effect be amending the class rules, the Executive Committee cannot make this decision under our constitution and thus it is up to the Council of Presidents to decide.

Please respond no later than Friday 24 December with your decision, 1 decision per country.
Select either option 1 or option 2.

Notes to consider:


A 2/3 majority in accordance with the voting rights of the constitution is required. If we do not meet this 2/3, option 2 is what we will do.



Remember that we are deciding for this Worlds only and that proper rule changes can be made through the normal process afterwards.



We must remember that there are 113 competitors who entered under the rules they believe were in force and only 2 are going to present wing sails. We must balance the fairness to the other 111 competitors with the objectives of our class as a open development class, and that if they do not race we will not get to see what the issues/advantages are in order to make decisions for the class moving forwards.



If option 1 is approved, Adam May is working with ISAF today & tomorrow on an amendment for the NOR which would require the wings to comply with the luff length limit (5185mm) and to be measured in their entirety under the 8m2 area limit. This would apply for the Worlds only.



If option 2 is approved, we will still proceed with the discussions on wing sails at the AGM along the lines of the responses to the questionnaire I sent out a few days ago.

Given the timeframe an urgent response is required from all National Presidents.
You may reply to the entire group or should you wish your vote to be kept confidential you may reply privately to me.

As I footnote, you should be made aware that the Executive Committee and in particular Chief Measurer Adam May have spent significant personal time on resolving this matter over the past 2 months. I would like to formally thank them for committing their time to this important process.Regards,
Mark
--
Mark Robinson
President
International Moth Class Association

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! WING RESISTANCE!

Doug Culnane on DA this morning:

This is true for developments that are within the rules. I am sure Bora considers his rig to be within those rules and I am sure he has good arguments to that effect.

However not everyone agrees. The main problem is the definition of a SAIL. What is one sail? A rig that is designed to exploit the slot effect is in my opinion clearly 2 sails. How far apart do the elements have to be to considered 2 sails? Is 3 meters gap clearly 2 sails? 0.3mm is maybe one? 300 mm is ? 30 mm is ? Most of us love the wing but some consider it to be 2 sails and some 1 sail. If you consider half of it is one sail then you must attach the sail numbers to this half. If they do not fit then your boat does not comply to the rules. If the mast is generating a huge amount of lift and has its area measured as sail area then it must also be considered a sail (maybe).

Wing mast and soft sails Cat Style are OK. However they are not designed to utilize the slot effect even if they are badly attached to the mast with some crap track system.

This is a very difficult and complex issue with no clear answer. Therefore it is down to the representatives of the IMCA members to decide Yes or No for the next Worlds ONLY.

What would happen if Bora filled the gap in the middle of the sail? Would it then be one sail and undistributed inside the rules? I think yes it would. However if he does that will it be as faster than a soft sail rig? So next week we will have an answer to the Chosen Option (Both of which are Options by definition of the word Option). If Bora decided to do some boat park boat building (which is a great Moth tradition) to fill in the gap and make it one sail surface maybe he can use the wing fairly under the current rules.

I am sure this is not over and I am sure that there is not clear answer to this. It is very interesting but an open debate was not making progress so a close one was attempted. This also did not reach a clear conclusion even with ISAF's help. Now it is in the hands of the IMCA Members and their representatives and maybe Bora and his toolbox (but that is just my opinion).

So again is this a rule cheat or a development? IMHO: Both maybe. Yes the exec are not perfect but we are also trying to do the best we can with layers of rules that do not cater for these rigs at all. Most of us have never even seen the wing rigs and details of them were only available when we requested them. It also does not help that unlike me some of the Exec have lives and better things to do in their free time.

.
Doug

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! Gulari sails The Wing in Australia

The Wing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0jOVBIacgY&feature=player_embedded

 

[P Flados]

The Wing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0jOVBIacgY&feature=player_embedded

Ya gotta admit, from BOR 90 to Bora, a well implemented wing on a boat is just plain cool.

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! The Wing

Ya gotta admit, from BOR 90 to Bora, a well implemented wing on a boat is just plain cool.

============
You're so right! And the most advanced development dinghy in the world should have a wing......(but I'm not convinced it will be faster)

 

[P Flados]

There are advantages and disadvantages when you go with a wing. For a moth, I see more on the plus side and not much on the minus side.

For the moth, the extra weight that is normally a big disadvantage is much less so. The overall size limit keeps the wing weight manageable from a handling standpoint. The fact that they are heeling to windward actually puts the extra weight to an advantage in heavier conditions. From the limited reports available, the extra weight does not seem to make getting the boat back upright a problem.

Although a wing itself may be complicated internally, operation should be simple. This is important on a craft where the sailor has to focus on other things.

A big point for a moth designed from scratch for a wing is that there is no need to consider the high stresses on the boat from the fore-stay with lots of vang tension. I have seen photos of structural hull failures.

Lots of moths have been homebuilt efforts. For a homebuilder, the materials for a competitive wing should be very reasonable compared to the cost of purchasing a factory rig.

The biggest minus side I see is in transport and storage. With the moth size limits, these issues are much less than form most other platforms where wings would be an option. The optimal solution for most wing equipped moth's would be a trailer designed up front for both wing & boat. A fully enclosed arrangement could be real advantage when boat protection and outdoor storage are objectives.

The complexity and maintenance requirements may also be more of a burden than for a soft rig, but on the other hand the cost of a new skin pales in comparison to replacement of a damaged or worn out sail.

 

[ancient kayaker]

The question of whether a wing sail is indeed a sail sounds like the one about is a board really a boat. The suggestion that a wing is really 2 sails because it has 2 surfaces probably originates with the old timers trying to discredit a new development; after all a sail also has 2 surfaces and both contribute to thrust.

Even sillier is the idea that a development class should have arbitrary limitations on technology that can be used. That may be fine for a tightly defined class where the idea is to open sailing to all, rich or poor, or where the point - like the Olympics - is to determine who is the best sailor. But for a developments class the whole point is to let the best idea win!

Having an affordable class where wing sail design can develop under competitive conditions should work to eliminate some of the disadvantages of wings, like handlng and transportation, durability, maybe some genius will even figure out a reefing system although I suspect no Moth sailor worth his salt would want to be seen reefing

 

[CT 249]

Terry, every strong development class does have restrictions on technology and/or design. In fact, the numerically stronger development classes generally have MORE restrictions on technology and design than the less-popular development classes.

This is a simple fact, perhaps created by the fact that classes with very few restrictions almost always die out or fail to develop big numbers. How many 12 Foot Skiffs do you have in Ontario? How often do you a strong fleet of C and D Class cats out on your lake? Where is your local unrestricted yacht fleet, your local unrestricted development class windsurfer fleets? Years ago the development classes ruled in dinghy sailing and there were big fleets of 14s on the Canadian lakes...... how many are there now?

The funny thing is that the "you cannot impose restrictions" calls normally come from those from areas where small-boat development classes are non-existent, or close to it. Meanwhile, those in places where development classes are strong (like around my city, where most clubs have at least one, often two, and there's probably well over 200 active an development skiffs and dinghies in total - probably more than in the whole of NA) accept that every development class has to face a delicate balancing act between innovation and over-development that can kill, or at least harm, the class.

What you are saying is that just about every development class in the world is wrong, because just about every one of them (in fact, every one of them I think) has arbitrary limitations on technology. So basically you are claiming that you and a few others who make a similar call are right, and that just about all of those who run the development classes are wrong. In that case, can you tell us on what knowledge base (involvement in development classes, involvement in running a class, experience in rulemaking, deep research into the history of development classes, etc) you are basing your call on?

For development classes, the best idea is to let the combination of best sailor and best idea WITHIN THE RULES win. Since no one can write a rule that encompasses everything that can possibly happen, sometimes that involves interpreting the rules and making new interpretations. It's that sort of thing that probably stopped the Moths from becoming a windsurfer class years ago.

From the information publicly available and my personal knowledge of one or two of those involved in the legality of the sail, I think you're largely or completely wrong about your belief that the legality issue is down to "old timers trying to discredit a new development". It seems like you're willing to malign the motives of others without apparently having any evidence. If you're going to make public opinions that involve accusations of bias on the part of volunteer officials, shouldn't you do more research?

Time and time again, we see people maligning rulemakers because those who are doing the insulting haven't bothered to check into the history and facts. It's a sad thing.

Do you really think you know more about running a development class than the people who have been involved in them for years, sometimes decades?

 

[CutOnce]

Terry, every strong development class does have restrictions on technology and/or design. In fact, the numerically stronger development classes generally have MORE restrictions on technology and design than the less-popular development classes.

This is a simple fact, perhaps created by the fact that classes with very few restrictions almost always die out or fail to develop big numbers. How many 12 Foot Skiffs do you have in Ontario? How often do you a strong fleet of C and D Class cats out on your lake?

Although I agree with your meaning, Lake Ontario has become one of the world's major hotspots for C Class activity. Fred Eaton and his entourage now regularly have three (and sometimes more) C Class cats out racing. It is an easy drive between here and Rhode Island, so Steve Clark and the Toronto folks get together more often than in most other venues.

Where is your local unrestricted yacht fleet, your local unrestricted development class windsurfer fleets? Years ago the development classes ruled in dinghy sailing and there were big fleets of 14s on the Canadian lakes...... how many are there now?

Again, understand your intent but there are major and growing fleets of I-14s in both Toronto and Ottawa. Here in Ottawa (home of Bruce Kirby before the Laser, when he designed I-14s) our skiff fleet has grown every year for the past ten. There are around 25 I-14s of various vintages here in Ontario - and more importantly at least 12 boats sailable at Worlds caliber.

The funny thing is that the "you cannot impose restrictions" calls normally come from those from areas where small-boat development classes are non-existent, or close to it. Meanwhile, those in places where development classes are strong (like around my city, where most clubs have at least one, often two, and there's probably well over 200 active an development skiffs and dinghies in total - probably more than in the whole of NA) accept that every development class has to face a delicate balancing act between innovation and over-development that can kill, or at least harm, the class.

What you are saying is that just about every development class in the world is wrong, because just about every one of them (in fact, every one of them I think) has arbitrary limitations on technology. So basically you are claiming that you and a few others who make a similar call are right, and that just about all of those who run the development classes are wrong. In that case, can you tell us on what knowledge base (involvement in development classes, involvement in running a class, experience in rulemaking, deep research into the history of development classes, etc) you are basing your call on?

For development classes, the best idea is to let the combination of best sailor and best idea WITHIN THE RULES win. Since no one can write a rule that encompasses everything that can possibly happen, sometimes that involves interpreting the rules and making new interpretations. It's that sort of thing that probably stopped the Moths from becoming a windsurfer class years ago.

From the information publicly available and my personal knowledge of one or two of those involved in the legality of the sail, I think you're largely or completely wrong about your belief that the legality issue is down to "old timers trying to discredit a new development". It seems like you're willing to malign the motives of others without apparently having any evidence. If you're going to make public opinions that involve accusations of bias on the part of volunteer officials, shouldn't you do more research?

Time and time again, we see people maligning rulemakers because those who are doing the insulting haven't bothered to check into the history and facts. It's a sad thing.

Do you really think you know more about running a development class than the people who have been involved in them for years, sometimes decades?

From my read of the conflict, I agree with CT249's opinion here. Nasty problem here was that there was no avoiding the issue - protest warnings were given prior to the Moth worlds, and with their World's facing probably discreditable results, they had to act and take the issue to the ISAF.

--
CutOnce

 

[ancient kayaker]

... For development classes, the best idea is to let the combination of best sailor and best idea WITHIN THE RULES win. Since no one can write a rule that encompasses everything that can possibly happen, sometimes that involves interpreting the rules and making new interpretations. It's that sort of thing that probably stopped the Moths from becoming a windsurfer class years ago ...

- good points all. I like the idea of a class like the Moth that seems to be boiling over with innovation and distrust folk that want to add a restriction that it has done very well without for so long. If wings are the next step then the Moth may become a footnote in the history of advanced boating development.

 

[MalSmith]

The question of whether a wing sail is indeed a sail sounds like the one about is a board really a boat. The suggestion that a wing is really 2 sails because it has 2 surfaces probably originates with the old timers trying to discredit a new development; after all a sail also has 2 surfaces and both contribute to thrust.

Firstly, one of the issues with the current crop of wings is that they have two elements, not two surfaces as you have incorrectly interpreted. Under the current rules, which were written around soft sails, the builders of the wings called forward element the mast, and the aft element the sail. This would be ok except for two things: 1) There is a slot between the forward and aft elements, which allows the rig to operate like a sloop rig, something which is implicitly banned under the rules. 2) Calling the forward element the mast allows the luff of the rig to be effectively about 500mm longer than it can be with a standard soft sail rig, which is exploiting a loophole.

The wing, under the current interpretation, may well be better than a soft sail, but it may not be because it is more efficient, as much as it is simply exploiting the rule. For me as a designer interested in development, this does not provide useful information which can be applied to the greater sailing community, not that the Moth class is under any obligation to do that.

Secondly, the majority of those challenging the validity of the current wings are not trying to ban them. The goal is to change the rule so that wings can be developed to their full potential, without arbitrary restrictions, under a rule which is equally fair regardless of the method of construction.

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils! The Wing is a go!

From SA front page, 12/27/10:

Wings for Moths are a go!

Dear IMCA Members,

Thank you for the prompt responses to your own national Presidents on the vote to amend the 2011 World Championships NOR and thus allow wingsails to be measured and compete; or not to amend the NOR.

The Presidents of all national associations have responded with the vote being 30 in favour of option 1 and 6 in favour of option 2.

We will therefore be proceeding with issuing an amendment to the NOR under the guidance of and with approval from ISAF. Chief Measurer Adam May is currently working with ISAF on the final text and I expect this to be released shortly.

Mark Robinson
President
International Moth Class Association
==========

Mark Robinson from post 1204:

"If option 1 is approved, Adam May is working with ISAF today & tomorrow on an amendment for the NOR which would require the wings to comply with the luff length limit (5185mm) and to be measured in their entirety under the 8m2 area limit. This would apply for the Worlds only."