Poor man’s passagemaker

[cthippo]

The fuel might be a bit expensive, but you could probably get across the ocean safely in this, and you wouldn't have to worry about headroom!

Only $200,000

http://www.maritimesales.com/MAT10.htm

 

[FAST FRED]

"Average price 32 000€ = 43 000$. And most with 30 year old engines, sails and rigging. Absolutely unsuitable for even a single passage."

Perhaps those boats are clapped out , but the one at our dock HAS a new mast and rig with a new Hood mainsail.Roller furling , autopilot and self steering too.

The engine IS old , but runs just fine ITS A SAILBOAT!!,

However if you would want an almost brand new identical Volvo MD 17B , we have one of those , an extra $3,500 with tranny , ready to drop in.

Many of these older boats are used as club racers , so many are in excellent condition.

For $10K you also get a new soft interior and Teak & Holly cabin sole.

Come on down, and go cruising , bring your own food.

You can be off the dock, as soon as the cash is counted, no rebuild needed.

FF

 

[TeddyDiver]

Many of these older boats are used as club racers , so many are in excellent condition.

So... a racer... not much to do with cruisers and even less with passagemaking.
I was taking about 10 tonnes of displacement by the way The point in passagemaking is to cover long distances with a certain comfortnes. This includes many things more than just cold wind and spray. To achieve this something else is needed also aboard in addition to provisions. There's an obvious reason why so many boats stay in marinas

 

[apex1]

So... a racer... not much to do with cruisers and even less with passagemaking.
I was taking about 10 tonnes of displacement by the way The point in passagemaking is to cover long distances with a certain comfortnes. This includes many things more than just cold wind and spray. To achieve this something else is needed also aboard in addition to provisions. There's an obvious reason why so many boats stay in marinas

Yeah Teddy, you did talk about proper size...........




.........which is a bit above 10 tonnes BTW.


Regards
Richard

 

[Wavewacker]

My point was not that "buy a sailboat and dump the rig" was the best way to go, but simply as an existence proof that:

1) Fuel efficiency of well over 5 nmpg, even as high as 10 nmpg, is VERY easy to obtain if one uses a sailboat hull form, displacement speeds, and modest diesel power. One still gets adequate accommodation and structure while still being much more seaworthy that most anything in "Voyaging Under Power" by Beebe.

2) Very, very few dollars could be expended to achieve this, IF one wanted to live with the inconveniences present in all sailboats, AND one was not embarrassed to power around in a sailboat without a mast.

Tad, I am sure that 400 gallons of fuel in tanks (2400 lbs) is substantially less structural load that lead hanging below. If the boat can support a keel and rig lads, it can handle fuel tanks. Might be a pain to fit them in, but one can get rid of the keel and put some there, no more need for sails, ... Does not seem a difficult issue.

Why are we talking about a "poor man's passagemaker" anyway? Its to explore ideas to do things on the cheap. This is not one of the "perfect passagemaker" threads. Its different, we are brainstorming different ways of doing things. Instead of "perfect" being the goal, "cheap" is the goal.

In my mind, getting rid of the rigging saves a LOT of money over any reasonable period of time. So keeping it a sailboat blows too many of the constraints on cost, safety, and area of operations.

Remember that Colin Archer lifeboats and sailboats had very similar ballasted displacement full keel hull forms.

That's what I thought when this was originally posted. There is a guy in the St. Louis area that wrote an article about what he called "terminal trawler" about various small sailboats with rigging stripped that could be powered and used for cruising. O'Days, MacGreggors and Hunters were just some suggested. They have suitable livable or campable interiors for thier length compared to any power cuddy or trawler of similar size. And yes, one could not be embarrassed to be seen in one, but they fit the bill with a fuel sipping 25hp outboard. No, I would not go into the North Atlantic in one. But then, many of the minimalist passagemakers at 32+ feet mentioned here won't be cruising thousands of miles of rivers and canals of North America either.

And, around 99 or 00, (I think it was) Mercury was introducing a 50hp Big Foot outboard. They put it on a 16 or 18 foot aluminum deep V baot, decked over part of it and covered the rest in canvas and took off on a circumnavigation....anyone know what happend to those two guys? They didn't die at sea, they had the press following them.

 

[apex1]

And, around 99 or 00, (I think it was) Mercury was introducing a 50hp Big Foot outboard. They put it on a 16 or 18 foot aluminum deep V baot, decked over part of it and covered the rest in canvas and took off on a circumnavigation....anyone know what happend to those two guys? They didn't die at sea, they had the press following them.

The next (idiotic) statement about the possibilities to survive at sea.

What, please, does this have to do with a capable motorcraft, able to circumnavigate in at least some basic comfort?

People ventured at sea in and on anything. They failed more often than not, did you notice that?

We can point towards another 100 examples, how completely insane people survived a trip. Does that make their tasks, or their voyages appreciable?

Do YOU, personally like to go to sea on floating crap?

Have you ever crossed a ocean?

Was the boat under 300ft ?

What was the name of your favourite stewardess?

Regards
Richard

 

[Tad]

One of these http://sailboatdata.com/VIEWRECORD.ASP?CLASS_ID=4041
anchored next to us last night....it occurred to me that one could go an awful long ways in such a boat and be pretty comfortable......three cabins, two heads (which is silly), plus a roomy cockpit that can be easily closed in with weather curtains, nice little 50HP Perkins, and there's a few available at $60-70k asking....hard to beat........

 

[Landlubber]

...yeah, Laurent Giles design, they have a good following here, but they sail very slow

 

[FAST FRED]

"but they sail very slow"

31ft LWL, should run 100 miles a day , as usual for smaller self steered cruisers.

FF

 

[Angélique]

Milan, I still don't know what your budget is. I saw a nice boat but it's beyond poor* in my eyes so don't know if I can post it here... What's the limit..??

If you want I can compromise and post a poor mans thing too. But that would be a sailboat if we're talking passagemaking...

Please let me know

* + side​

Cheers,
Angel

 

[TeddyDiver]

Angel.. It's more hypothetic discussion what a "poor-mans-passagemaker" would be like.. or does such a vessel even excist at all..
Anyway, I'm building my version

 

[Angélique]

Angel.. It's more hypothetic discussion what a "poor-mans-passagemaker" would be like.. or does such a vessel even excist at all..

Yes I know, but Milan started this thread so best he draws ± the $$ line here...

...or maybe he and the public wants to see them here anyway..?​

Anyway, I'm building my version

Happy building !!! - - Where's the thread..??

Cheers,
Angel


PS - with a Gollywobbler..?

 

[TeddyDiver]

Happy building !!! - - Where's the thread..??
PS - with a Gollywobbler..?

Thanks.. got a few pictures and sketches in the gallery but no thread so far.. maybe later.. Anyway it's a longrange motorsailor, thus the gollywobbler (nobody seen one in a ketch yet ) and CPP in the avatar..

 

[Milan]

[

Milan, I still don't know what your budget is…

Hi Angel.

I’m not really in the market for such boat at the moment. I’m sailor, not really power boat guy, but I’m interested in boats in general, like many different kinds.

I sailed before mostly on modern yachts, but last years, I got slowly involved in the traditional Dutch sailing ships scene end there will be my primary focus for forciable future. I can get there all sailing that I want end more.

I also have a full time job in totally different field that pays the bills, so less time for sailing then I would want. This year, I finished first year of maritime school, (http://www.ezs.nl/html/diploma_kleine_zeilvaart.html) and got certificate for the skipper of sailing ships of maximum length of 40 meters in coastal navigation. Before I’m allowed to actually become a captain I need first to accumulate a lot of experience as a deckhand on that kind of ships.

I followed Richard’s passagmakers threads with interest, and understood potential.

Inspired by that and one very long thread in which I took part couple of years ago, (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/bo...oats-versus-motorboats-11479-6.html#post87621), I thought that it might be interesting to explore what can be done for much smaller budgets. Not really poor, that’s impossible, with such boat, but for a kind of price that might be achievable for the middle class. Not sure how much, it depends from many factors, say, somewhere around 300 000 – 400 000 Euro, new built, aiming for less.

Boat should be very seaworthy, able to visit very desolate, rough places, high latitudes. Simple as possible, workboat type finish, economical to operate – low resistance hull, long, narrow, low, auxiliary sail plan, (cheap, simple, traditional Dutch type short gaff rig, schooner). Volume for living and comfort level similar to the 12 meters sailing yacht.

I always liked older lifeboats, (Neeltje Jacoba kind of type, you know them). (She is for sale by the way) - http://www.devalk.nl/index.asp?language=en&page=detail_yacht&reference_no=64368), and tought that their modified general form and hull shapes could be good basis for the (economical) passagmaker. Passagmaker would have one engine and normal, streamlined hull, not 2 engines and tunnel hull as Neeltje, a bit ligther built overall. Doesn’t have to be double ender, could have a transom stern.

High time to draw some sketches. I will, one of these days, don’t have much free time.

… or maybe he and the public wants to see them here anyway…

Oh, yes, feel free to post them please, I’m interested in your finds, you have a good taste. I like those from your previous post 66, although they are not exactly what I’m aiming at in this thread.

Cheers

 

[Angélique]

Hi Milan,

Thanks for the information. I came across this one, a nice boat to share the info about but to much sail for Richard's threads and over budget here.

Keepvogel - desined by Arend Lambrechtsen. - -(here a Google translation of the Keepvogel info)

Keepvogel 20 meter Zeilkotter.

Deze 2 mast zeilkotter is ontworpen voor een groot vaargebied. Met haar variabele diepgang van ca 1,20/4,50 meter kan zij vrijwel overal varen terwijl zij zich met haar hefkiel neer ook op zee goed thuis zal voelen.

Zij leent zich dan ook ideaal voor bewoning door mensen die vanuit eigen huis meer dan Nederland alleen willen zien.

Lengte romp: 20,00 m
Breedte: 6,05 m
Diepgang: 1,20/4,50 m
Zeiloppervlak: ca 220 m²
Waterverplaatsing: 40 ton

- -

De kotter als technisch vaarklaar casco. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Voor het eerst onder zeil.
-

To keep the thread's budget in balance here also one that is on a tighter budget.

The poor man’s ocean cruiser - desined by Tom Colvin.

The poor man’s ocean cruiser



This design does not have full headroom, but has everything else going for it as far as comfort is concerned. It is seaworthy, fast, simple to build, inexpensive to rig, and can use an auxiliary engine of minimal horsepower. This vessel can be built in aluminum or steel. The 37-footer (shown here) sleeps two, and has a 9’3” beam and a 3’6” draft. She is double-ended, and carries the simple three-sail schooner rig. As long as simplicity is acceptable, this type of hull has much to offer.
-

About Neeltje Jacoba, I know the story of Mabel and 'de Dominee' ('the Reverend'). Quite an interesting story for a boat to be in the middle of constitutional crisis with the monarchy at stake and one prince thrown out of the line of throne succession. I guess most non boaters in Holland only know Neeltje for this story. But she is more than that..!! But I once read that parts of her ‘‘kieptanks’’ (how is that called in English?) were removed to gain interior space after she became a yacht. So she lost her self righting capabilities. I guess Dorus Rijkers' hart would cry if he knew about this. Dorus died a year before Neeltje was launched but he has seen Insulinde..!!

Good luck with becoming a captain on the large Dutch traditional sailing charter ships..!!

Cheers,
Angel


PS - just saw the info about the removal of Neeltje's kieptanks is also on Wikipedia, I added the links...