Hull boat design practice poor man's composite idea

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Ilikeboats, Jun 5, 2017.

  1. Ilikeboats
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    Ilikeboats Junior Member

    Feel free to send me a private message of any methods you think should be added for consideration in our thread it can be anonymous.I am sure some experienced boat builders have a few methods they do to reduce costs but learn in full scale.
     
  2. Ilikeboats
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    Ilikeboats Junior Member

    For interior full size modeling a new suggestion is Use appliance cardboard for full size modeling during design process... it's free out of the dumpster. Great suggestion to point out.
     
  3. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Easiest and least expensive are generally not available together. You get to have one or the other. To attain your goals, first you need to state them clearly. The thread started as the possibility of using cheap foam and materials that are not ideal for the job. If the ultimate goal is the easiest and cheaper, plywood is the answer.
     
  4. Ilikeboats
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    Ilikeboats Junior Member

    you guys have a good point about wood it is cheap to work with except high grade marine light luan and most peoples comfort level another thing i like about wood it will shape.. not as good as foam but possible.
     
  5. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    What do you mean by "not as good as foam"? Unless you define parameters to compare them, it makes no sense. Three years ago I needed a dinghy for my sailboat and built one in a day with pine sides and 1/4 underlay plywood from Home Depot. I planed the pine boards to 9/16 to save weight. The cost, including fiberglass tape for the seams was about $100. I started a Saturday and finished painting on Sunday mid-afternoon. It always stays outside on the weather and sometimes in the water for several days. I am building a new one, and my grandson inherited it.
     
  6. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Man you need to get your ducks in a row.
    1. What's the final boat gonna be made out of and by what method?
    2. Do you want round bilge or chines?
    3. What are you asking us here?

    As for your quoted statement you are wrong. Strip plank and cold molding can make any shape you want. And light marine luan ply is from the history books, now it's all okume.

    Just cost this out please:
    1 sq.ft. of boat planking in following methods:
    6 oz. Fiberglas cloth, 10 oz. Epoxy - 1/4 SPF or other wood - 6 oz. fiberglas cloth, 10 oz. Epoxy
    18 oz CSM, 30 oz. Polyester resin - 1/4 SPF or other wood - 18 oz CSM, 30 oz. Polyester resin
    Same epoxy layup with 1 inch XPS instead of wood.
    Compare that with 1/4 generic exterior ply with SPF battens all around and 1 foot of FG tape with epoxy.
     
  7. Ilikeboats
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    Ilikeboats Junior Member

    It sounds like the old school guys say build it and learn to like it however it turns out... I think the mock up would make a much better final design.
     
  8. Ilikeboats
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    Ilikeboats Junior Member

    The debate is the mock up method not my final design..but I will do my best to give you some details so hopefully that will end all those questions so we can get back to the objectives of this thread.. everyone who hasn't already asked me for what details they need to help with this and I will make a master list and respond to them all if I can.. without completely giving my final design away.
     
  9. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    If you want help on a public forum, you will need to post everything pertinent to the design. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but considering the level of your questions, the design can't be novel or revolutionary. In other words, posting whatever drawings you have won't harm you in any way. On the contrary, it will allow us to help you.
     
  10. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    +1 for Gonzo.

    Hiding things is the best way for a novice to waste his time and money.
    But it's a free country.
     
  11. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Place a copyright symbol on your drawings and start the registration process. This way you're protected and it's retroactive back to the first appearance of the copyright mark. Not that it really matters, unless you can afford a 7 to 8 year legal battle in federal court. This is what the average is to defend a copyright infringement case. My point is, even if you have something exceptional and truly ground breaking, you have to be able to defend it or you will be eaten by those interested in taking it. It's not an evil thing, just a business decision that's commonly employed. Typically, they wear you down in time and money, until you lose interest, become too frustrated or simply can't afford to continue. It's cheaper to do this than set up a R&D section at the office and search out new, innovative stuff. Don't get me wrong, there's still plenty of R&D funding, but if something actually revolutionary comes along, every shark in the pool, will be hanging off your butt, regardless of copyright protection, unless (again) it's well defended.

    If you attempt to keep the secret, to protect yourself, you'll never get the development you obviously require. The only way around this is a NDA and some professionals to fill in the skill set gaps you're clearly missing. Welcome to the 21st century.
     
  12. swamp thing
    Joined: Jun 2017
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    swamp thing Junior Member

    I do not care what is built.
    Using the foam, fiberglass mesh with maybe the base coat that we use to do the EFIS stucco system could get you a mock up hull.
    Likely materials would be about $ 1.75 cubic foot and about $ 2-4.00 of surface area depending????
    Your safety in the testing would depend on what you might try to do with hull.
    You have gotten me to consider making /testing a pirogue hull shape I have thought about with foam, make changes then use hull to cold mold a real boat off of.
    Seems to me the trick is to keep it strong enough to test but easy enough to change as you see needs.
     
  13. Ilikeboats
    Joined: May 2017
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    Ilikeboats Junior Member

    That's really cool the Grandson will think of you for years with happy thoughts.
    Gonzo you have a point My statement "not as good as foam" I was referencing making complex shapes,I am as guilty of anyone here of having preconceived notions. Since you are pushing full disclosure. I was trying to keep it simple (private) so we could stay on task, figuring out how to make full size mock up.
    I have some different ideas that I would like to see the merit of and if they can be included in my permanent design. I want to use curvy shapes in the design to create a area that has a slidable safety glass and a lift up push forward top in the area, to either have the seating area be a inside or outside space. A pocket door in bulkhead between the cockpit and the head space.. It wasn't this designers idea, it was a original idea I got when looking at this drawing I would like to try. a lot of boats have two seating areas (booth like) inside and out I would like to make one that is both to reduce length save space. The part by the bulkhead separating the cabin from the aft boat deck on one half use as bathroom/shower the other part can pick up top slide to front to expose the roof area in that place making it open air. The side on the left be the entrance to shower/head with right having curvy brace to strengthen structure with a track built into it. Then sliding window running parallel with the hull to open when you want free air flow and a light spray while underway won't bother you. Do you see why being able the easily change the design is so very important? Getting to the 5th or 6th generation build in the same experimental build would be very helpful. Use it get feed back change design Rinse/Repeat until great working design is made.

    full disclosure, I want to use the poor man's mock up as a male form when done so I can do a Basalt/Fiberglass/foam/ 1 piece structure over the whole thing at the end of the testing and changing summer. Then after doing a full composite over it Use the opening as a place to cut and pull out most of the original poor man's mock up leaving a super strong one piece hull made of basalt kind of like the african cats (hull composite) but a lot smaller so it can be trailerable/good on gas to haul/strong enough to take the bouncing and also being light on the water so it will be a fuel sipper not guzzler or light under sail.
    The booth table could be put down to create a outside or inside sleeping area for just the right romantic nights or guest sleeping I am thinking 22' by 8'6" width bridgedeck 1'8" from waterline so no slapping sound. So a boat for 2 regularly, 4 for cramped overnights, Hulls U shaped 2'3" wide in back changing to deep v and point at front with forward and aft bulkheads in both Hulls along with tankage
     

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    Last edited: Jun 10, 2017
  14. Ilikeboats
    Joined: May 2017
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    Ilikeboats Junior Member

    Here is a smaller version of how I am thinking of cutting hulls. Foamboat Construction: 12 Steps (with Pictures) http://www.instructables.com/id/Foamboat-construction/ my plan is to combine both these methods to cut and stack foam that is cut oversized but has the underlayment with the proper shapes then make homemade hot foam cutter cut to shape, use more gripper between the layers of foam as glue taking out the underlayment before final coat then on outside then start sanding fairing... Before outside shell of poor man's composite or epoxy/glass for the mock up then cut back interior and strengthen at 24" centers and cover all exterior and interior with composite.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017

  15. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Your foam can only be really considered a shape former, for all practical purposes you should factor its structural input as being minimal.
     
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