Poor man’s passagemaker

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Milan, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Good idea, if you are "poor" enough................

    In general:

    The poor mans passagemaker (by definition) is not possible, thats it.

    You either can afford such craft, or you have to die with your envy. Poor mans Megayachts are as easily affordable, and sensible to think about.

    This senseless drivel has to come to a end. Poor men don´t go to cross oceans on motoryachts (not even on sailing yachts), period!

    Yeah, that hurts,

    bear it........
     
  2. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Poor men don´t go to cross oceans on motoryachts (not even on sailing yachts), period!

    Not so sure about po folks on small sailboats not crossing oceans,visit Panama or Barbados and see who is transiting there.

    But , does that bring us back to the BOXBOAT , a boat 39 ft long 7.6 ft wide that can slide into a 9ft high container?

    Much nicer crossing oceans in a jetliner seat , with a Stew handing out drinkies and watching a movie.

    Than playing the "Victory at Sea" tape , and slogging it out for 6000 miles., PRAYING that nothing breaks there are not parts and skills aboard to fix.

    Ocean scantlings and fuel capacity is a huge requirement ,SEA LAND box boats do it really well,,

    the ability of a nice inshore box boat to cruise at close to 20K , and take the ground easily should make the fun end of the cruise - the destination -far more enjoyable .

    So were back to is it the voyage or destination that is the goal?

    FF
     
  3. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    In this thread, unlimited voyaging is a goal as well as destinations, including those in high altitudes, with increment weather. Boat must be very seaworthy.

    I’ll try to draw some sketches over the weekend. Can't find a time for it, very busy at the moment. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    "It's not the ships, it's the people in em." or some such....I don't know who said that.....

    It can be done....I have a 30' by 8' Ocean Crosser proposal from Phil Bolger. Essentially minimum accommodations wrapped around a 325 usg fuel tank with a 27HP Yanmar in the bow. Bolger states 6.5 knots at 12HP, over 9 miles per gallon or a range of about 2800 miles.

    BolgerOC.jpg
     
  5. u4ea32
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    u4ea32 Senior Member

    The more I think about my experiences cruising (80K miles under sail, and another 80K miles under power), the more I am certain that the "Poor man’s passagemaker" is a common reality.

    Again, a visit to Panama or any other place where a lot of cruisers exposes the fact that
    1) There is no feasible minimum budget
    2) People spend what they have
    3) Simple and small is very, very much more popular that large and luxurious

    The recent crossing of the Atlantic by a 6.5m, 21 foot long single diesel powerboat proves its possible: http://www.mayrik.com/HomeEnglP214.htm

    So, again, one may insist fiercely that there is no such thing as inexpensive passagemaking, but trivially verifiable facts prove otherwise.
     
  6. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Another small one is Pazapa, 20' by 8', designed, built, and sailed by Dave Jackman. He stated his needs were covered by a 6' cockpit, 6' saloon, and 6' bunk with 2' of overhang = 20'. He also stated that "a two ton diesel cruiser could comfortably make 120 miles per day on about 12 litres of fuel. A 20' sailboat has to work very hard to make 120 miles per day. " I'll attach four pages of an 8 page article.

    At the time of publication, he had about 135 hours underway in Pazapa, averaging 5 knots at 1500-1700 RPM. Top speed was stated as 7.1 knots. Average fuel consumption, including runs of 20+ miles into the wind, was .7 litres per hour. He obtained 45 mpg (imperial) at 5 knots by opening the rocker clearance somewhat.

    Of particular interest in this boat are the retractable horizontal stabilizer fins submersed in the quarter wave....a clever idea.....I wonder how it really worked?
    Pazapa01.jpg

    Pazapa02.jpg

    Pazapa03.jpg

    Pazapa04.jpg
     
  7. u4ea32
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    u4ea32 Senior Member

    Clearly, one can build such a boat cheaply. One can also emulate the boat by simply taking an existing fiberglass sailboat and tossing the rig into a dumpster. Get rid of some or all of the ballast to make room for the half ton or so of fuel. Plenty of sailboats in the 30 to 40 foot range power near hull speed at fuel burn rates approaching 10 nautical miles per gallon.

    This ain't rocket science. Any displacement performance model shows this to be easily obtainable.
     
  8. u4ea32
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    u4ea32 Senior Member

    Regarding the boards to reduce rolling:

    Any device has its limits.

    Fixed angle-of-attack devices like bilge keels and the boards in the Pazapa are going to have a little effect.

    Mechanically variable angle-of-attack devices such as paravanes are effective in specific conditions (a specific range of excitation by waves).

    Dynamically variable a-o-a devices such as typical active stabilizers by Trac, Wesmar, and Naiad are of course far more effective, because they actually respond to the angle, rate, and rate-rate of motion and do whatever is needed to damp that motion regardless of the excitation spectrum.

    Low end active stabilizers by Wesmar can be purchased new for less than $15K.

    Home built stabilizers should be simple too, although I've not tried yet. IMU (inertial measurement units) with USB connect to any laptop and are less than $1K. Writing control equations is pretty darn easy, far less hassle than all the fabrication required for paravanes. Electric motors with good motor controllers (very slow to high rate, smooth action) are not trivially cheap, but many are available in the few thousand dollar range.
     
  9. u4ea32
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    u4ea32 Senior Member

    I cannot believe this statement, Apex1. I cannot believe anyone can "circumnavigate or sail almost year round" and not know MANY people who are doing it on very low budgets. You are simply not credible ON THIS POINT.

    You do seem to make sense most of the time, but here you are simply spouting nonsense.
     
  10. u4ea32
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    u4ea32 Senior Member

    Probably true! ;-)
     
  11. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

  12. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    In 1985 Irishman Enda O'Coineen crossed the Atlantic in a 17.5' RBI powered by a 55HP Suzuiki outboard. That same year American Al Grover and his son crossed in a stock 26' Groverbuilt skiff with twin 65HP Evinrude outboards.

    In 2002 the Spirit of Cardiff, a 30' RBI, went around the world in less than 80 days underway.

    Back in about the late 1970's a 11.9m (39') aluminum motoryacht designed by Dick Koopmans circumnavigated.........

    So the minimum is whatever you happen to have.....
     
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  13. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    That Pazapa reminds me of a Davidson Chugger....there was a guy going up and down the BC Coast with one a few years ago.

    For those who don't know they were based on lifeboat hulls,don't know if many are outside of BC.

    He had plans to go to Hawaii.

    Skip the first 3 minutes...and beware country music
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Q1u_n2YF4


    And though sails are involved several 25' Heavenly Twins catamarans have circumnavigated (one around Cape Horn),many Atlantic crossings, and a few have done the N. America to Australia trip

    http://www.2hulls.com/gallery/Model/Heavenly-Twins-27-Catamaran.html
     

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  14. u4ea32
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    u4ea32 Senior Member

    Totally agree.
     

  15. srimes
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    srimes Senior Member

    That's interesting, especially the Spirit of Cardiff. What to y'all think of planing offshore cruisers? I thought they couldn't carry enough fuel and still get on plane, but I guess that isn't the case?
     
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