Split Paddle Wheel propulsion design

[gonzo]

Jetski hulls are not very effective and they are quite heavy beast

What is not effective about them? They fulfill their SOR. If you dislike the SOR, it is a personal issue and not a design flaw.

If you compare this to relatively weak power source of tunnel boats : e.g 60 APX | Competition Outboards | Mercury Racing https://www.mercuryracing.com/engines/competition/60apx.html
I remember stock 40hp two strokes making 68 mph .

I compare them to a flats boat and they are not very effective. There is no live bait well, casting platform, or anchoring system.
I compare them to a water taxi, and they have no space for passengers.
I compare them to a bridge work boat, and they have no push knees, space for divers or steel workers, no generator to run welders, etc.
I compare them to a ski boat, and they have not low end power to get a skier up quickly.

 

[seasquirt]

High speed paddle wheels are used to aerate / oxygenate dams, and water pools, and sewage treatment ponds, but never used in a high speed boats. For low speeds and shallow waters they are good, as mentioned before, however mostly redundant in these modern times of modified waterways. They could make a come back one day if the price is right economically or environmentally, eg. avoiding the expense of river regulation. Re-wilding is a thing, old trees - river snags, are habitat for threatened native fish species, so a wild river bank isn't compatible with outboard legs, large propellers, and even jetski jet pumps, so THERE is a case for a paddle wheel, except for the cost of paying crew for a slower transit of cargo. OK for pleasure craft not dragging skiers or fast water toys.
Paddle steamers used to race each other to the next job, it was a slow race. To save time and win the race, captains were known to burn the furniture and cabin woodwork, and even wheelhouse, to get there first, and secure a profitable load, paying for a rebuild of the cabins and wheelhouse.
I forgot what the OP's question was, it was ages ago, last year even.

 

[montero]

High speed paddle wheels are used to aerate / oxygenate dams, and water pools, and sewage treatment ponds, but never used in a high speed boats.

There are some "fast" experimental boats .

For low speeds and shallow waters they are good, as mentioned before, however mostly redundant in these modern times of modified waterways. They could make a come back one day if the price is right economically or environmentally, eg. avoiding the expense of river regulation. Re-wilding is a thing, old trees - river snags, are habitat for threatened native fish species, so a wild river bank isn't compatible with outboard legs, large propellers, and even jetski jet pumps, so THERE is a case for a paddle wheel, except for the cost of paying crew for a slower transit of cargo.

Go-devils and other monsters are more proven designs in that enviroment .But maybe for active water hiacint removal paddle dozer sounds good.

OK for pleasure craft not dragging skiers or fast water toys.

It's possible as I mentioned above. But paddle wheels cut be dangerous .

Paddle steamers used to race each other to the next job, it was a slow race. To save time and win the race, captains were known to burn the furniture and cabin woodwork, and even wheelhouse, to get there first, and secure a profitable load, paying for a rebuild of the cabins and wheelhouse.

Because they was serious CAPTAINS.

 

[gonzo]

Re-wilding is a thing, old trees - river snags, are habitat for threatened native fish species, so a wild river bank isn't compatible with outboard legs, large propellers, and even jetski jet pumps, so THERE is a case for a paddle wheel, except for the cost of paying crew for a slower transit of cargo.

I work in those conditions inspecting bridges and other structures. It is much easier and cheaper to change propellers and/or lower units than getting snags off a paddle wheel and then rebuilding it. Further, in the worst case scenario, I can replace an outboard in short time.

 

[Barry]

Efficiency has come up a few times on this forum

For clarification only, when you refer to efficiency you should (from an engineering perspective) define what you are referring to. Certainly when discussing a particular set of
parameters, we tend to ignore the parameter definition

.
Paddlewheels aren't most efficient propulsion , jets also . But jets are very popular of different reasons , so maybe we should not cross out paddlewheels as possible propulsion system , maybe for fast water hiacynt cleaning.

Consider 2 outboard jets
1) able to work in shallow water
2) easy to clean debris off leg, though rarely an issue
3) vectored thrust- ie much better steering control
4) independent thrust directions between both engines for further slow speed maneuverability, ie one engine in forward the other in reverse for tight turns
5) to 4) above, without a split wheel, your steering ability requires some speed to enable the rudders to work adequately
6) extremely light weight as compared to the weight of an inboard engine, transmission, rudders (which reduce draft), paddle wheel, perhaps a complicated control system
7) more space under rear deck
8) you may be able to find smaller jets that use fly by wire controls to make installation incredibly easier and from 2 or more stations
9) possibly lower cost
10) possibly lower lifetime maintenance
11) depending on winter conditions you may have a very simple winterizing process

A downside may be a slightly higher fuel consumption rate per mile but without examples of the fuel requirements (miles per gallon) of a paddle wheeler, (speed, weight of the boat, drag
of the boat) this may not be relevant

 

[montero]

I appreciate what you wrote about outboard jet , all you claims are true . Especially when you comparing with some virtual split paddlewheel .
But like always nothing is for everything , outboard jets have some limitation of area of use also and effectiveness isn't strong side of them . Yes I don't want write that word .
Propulsive efficiency - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propulsive_efficiency
I found some papers of paddlewheel study and one of them start from conclusion that quad scull , four man rowing boat achive 10-11 knots despite each of them produce only 248 watt of power average .
Not too many people was trying to dismiss paddle wheeler Alecto vs HMS Rattler result . Some of them : Volpich and Bridge 1955 ,Wray and Starret 1970, Alexander 1999 an finally Incat Tasmania with University of Tasmania 2011-2013 .
My humble observations of existing solutions and nature , tell me that there are more interesting cases and much more to research.

 

[Barry]

I appreciate what you wrote about outboard jet , all you claims are true . Especially when you comparing with some virtual split paddlewheel .
But like always nothing is for everything , outboard jets have some limitation of area of use also and effectiveness isn't strong side of them . Yes I don't want write that word .
Propulsive efficiency - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propulsive_efficiency
I found some papers of paddlewheel study and one of them start from conclusion that quad scull , four man rowing boat achive 10-11 knots despite each of them produce only 248 watt of power average .
Not too many people was trying to dismiss paddle wheeler Alecto vs HMS Rattler result . Some of them : Volpich and Bridge 1955 ,Wray and Starret 1970, Alexander 1999 an finally Incat Tasmania with University of Tasmania 2011-2013 .
My humble observations of existing solutions and nature , tell me that there are more interesting cases and much more to research.

From your reference to Wiki and Propulsive efficiency, I hope that you do realize that the outboard jet is attached in place of the propeller?

 

[Herreshock]

You could build a VAWT wind turbine powered split paddle wheel boat

Also solar steam or solar stirling with smaller lighter wheels for calm weather only

All depends of the aspect ratio of blades, and gearbox to convert torque to rpm

You should check researchgate and academia for new designs, if you cover the wheels with fabric it won't create the enormous drag they probably create, i would use covers until waterline instead that partial cover on the picture

Still it seems ludicrous people keeps using engines instead sails and rowing poles, even rivers funiculars haven't invented yet and downstream boats could lift other boat upstream...

 

[montero]

You could build a VAWT wind turbine powered split paddle wheel boat

Also solar steam or solar stirling with smaller lighter wheels for calm weather only

All depends of the aspect ratio of blades, and gearbox to convert torque to rpm

You should check researchgate and academia for new designs, if you cover the wheels with fabric it won't create the enormous drag they probably create, i would use covers until waterline instead that partial cover on the picture

Still it seems ludicrous people keeps using engines instead sails and rowing poles, even rivers funiculars haven't invented yet and downstream boats could lift other boat upstream...

I remember movie scene from "Mosquito coast" 1986 starring Harrison Ford . Great movie IMO. In the face of incoming tropical storm , native guy give them spark plugs secretly . I remember it even though it's just a movie scene. For me carburated two stroke is one of best people inventions.I highly recommend this movie to you and I hope you will enjoy it.

Energy Observer guys tested some small VAWT and they was disapointed of them . For me they are vulnerable and fragile against wind and waves enviroment , and have less options to reef and control vs HAVT .

 

[Herreshock]

I remember movie scene from "Mosquito coast" 1986 starring Harrison Ford . Great movie IMO. In the face of incoming tropical storm , native guy give them spark plugs secretly . I remember it even though it's just a movie scene. For me carburated two stroke is one of best people inventions.I highly recommend this movie to you and I hope you will enjoy it.

Energy Observer guys tested some small VAWT and they was disapointed of them . For me they are vulnerable and fragile against wind and waves enviroment , and have less options to reef and control vs HAVT .

Yes i remember "Mosquito coast" but there's thousands of years of humanity using wind power for different uses as VAWT were developed in ancient Persia and probably plenty of places besides HAWT, so that movie was trying to appropriate these technologies or advertising the "appropriate technology" movement that also appropriated ancient culture things as "permaculture" does and has failed as a trend

Even most of the industrial machinery was powered by river mills since not long ago, just few decades and that's coming back wherever we find it fashionable or not

"Energy observer" was a corporate electric scam just as electric vehicles are, i wouldn't ever use HAWT just because the noise, a heavy slow VAWT can power any rpm with a sound proofed gearbox

Energy observer looks now like a solar panel wasteland. With the same surface it could have used CSP solar or VAWT to compress air and use that air for propulsion and move all pneumatic tools and gear, and leaving few solar panels for electronics. Large compressed air containers can be used as hull stringers so not weight is added.

I checked "energy observer 2" and is horrible, just like a minicargo powerboat render, that hull will roll and capsize pretty easily and hydrogen is a "natural gas" scam trying to extend the 1950s fossil fuel and mass electrification degeneration

 

[montero]

Energy observer looks now like a solar panel wasteland.

I agree .

I read your posts and nothing is impossible ,some your ideas to consider , however I stuck in my
design of the salt steam engine . Pistons, piston rings , cylinder wall lubrication . Everything is easy unless we try to do something.

 

[Herreshock]

I agree .

I read your posts and nothing is impossible ,some your ideas to consider , however I stuck in my
design of the salt steam engine . Pistons, piston rings , cylinder wall lubrication . Everything is easy unless we try to do something.

These ideas have been already researched by many universities and they can be applied everywhere for different uses


Water can be desalinated with CSP solar with different methods like last generation solar stills, multi effect desalination systems, solar steam etc and you can desalinate water for a closed cycle of CSP steam engine using silent rotary engines like DiPietro instead pistons

 

[montero]

These ideas have been already researched by many universities and they can be applied everywhere for different uses


Water can be desalinated with CSP solar with different methods like last generation solar stills, multi effect desalination systems, solar steam etc and you can desalinate water for a closed cycle of CSP steam engine using silent rotary engines like DiPietro instead pistons

Maximum solar energy available is 1 kW/m2 x 0.7 efficiency x 50m2 solar array : 35kW of heat power available . Desalination by destilation is high energy consuming process . I need one step salty steam creation and scrap IC engine for modifications .

 

[Herreshock]

Maximum solar energy available is 1 kW/m2 x 0.7 efficiency x 50m2 solar array : 35kW of heat power available . Desalination by destilation is high energy consuming process . I need one step salty steam creation and scrap IC engine for modifications .

Solar distillation doesn't require and energetic process like this MIT solar distillation system more efficient than RO reverse osmosis powered by pumps, even RO could be done with wind powered pumps instead using electricity but again RO plastic membranes introduce nanoplastic in the water

 

[montero]

Solar distillation doesn't require and energetic process like this MIT solar distillation system more efficient than RO reverse osmosis powered by pumps, even RO could be done with wind powered pumps instead using electricity but again RO plastic membranes introduce nanoplastic in the water

I've read once about this process. There are some problems with salt deposits . Anyway you need space and solar energy for another process .It's big complication.