Split Paddle Wheel propulsion design

A steerable sternwheel is something I hadn't thought of. Maybe for good reason.

More than good reason.
Believe me, if the crackpots and MacGyver's of the industrial revolution era could have done it they would.
Right along with the flapping fish tails and, (later on,) ornithopters. :rolleyes:
 
I have been running a sidewheel steamer for more than a decade, and have a couple other steamboats as well as IC boats. See youtube video: <<<
>>> . If you want to build mechanical complexity, consider a steam plant. Most of the parts can be cobbled together from IC engine parts, plus plenty of welding to make a boiler.

For a displacement type hull at "hull speed", two or three horsepower per ton of displacement is sufficient, even considering the lower efficiency of paddle propulsion. Displacement hull speed is: Speed (knots) = 1.34 x squareroot of waterline length (feet). This gives about 6 knots, and a maximum of 10 horsepower will push a 4 - 5 ton boat.

On the other side of performance, various snowmobiles can actually go faster than the high performance personal watercraft. Functionally these snowmobiles are actually using a propulsion system that is the same as a stern paddlewheel boat. A traditional stern paddler could be built with similar high performance. You could build a fast sternwheeler if you want, with a few hundred horsepower for a 30 foot hull. Automotive engines and drive train components can be adapted to this path.

I have been educated in paddlewheel propulsion, and am willing to assist you in design details if you like, once you decide on the basic direction you would like to take: Steam or Internal Combustion power plant, fast or slow, traditional silent or viscous radical fast. Have a look at the Beckersville Steam Engineering Co. website.

Photo of articulating paddlewheels built for my sidewheeler.
 

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More than good reason.
Believe me, if the crackpots and MacGyver's of the industrial revolution era could have done it they would.
Right along with the flapping fish tails and, (later on,) ornithopters. :rolleyes:
But what a spectacular failure it could be! Fun to watch. If those aviation pioneers had the movie rights they would probably be rich men.
 
I couldn't begin to add-up all the hours spent in thinking, drawing, research, and even designing and building my own steam engine, all because of wanting to build a sternwheel boat, (I'm not past that, I'm just too old to do it now. lol).
Do a search for "Atkin boat plans", he designed 2>3 sternwheel boats in the size range you're considering.
Go on YouTube, lots of sternwheel boats.
Split wheels? Up here in the PNW we've a rich history of sternwheel boats and from all the books I've read and research I've learned that split wheels were quite rare, two main reasons, but with IC engines instead of steam one of those reasons is moot.
The reason left is cost.
You'll find that there is no need whatsoever to try and add mechanical complexity, you'll have more than enough of that
without even trying.
Unless you absolutely require the Nth degree of turning area reduction split wheels on a sternwheeler don't add much.
If the rudder arrangement is proper, (the Atkin boats were not,) you'll have little trouble being able to "back-and-fill" in a tight area.
When I said "proper", you need rudders both ahead of and behind the wheel, (usually three, with split wheels you need at least four,) and you should have a way to operate them independently, (inner and outer steering wheels,) and have simple cable/rope operated rudder position indicators.
Propulsion? Hydraulics are a nightmare and noisy beyond belief, everybody will wear earplugs. Listening to a couple of little gas engines screaming away running hydraulic pumps will ruin any peaceful enjoyment.
Use mechanical drive, don't use worm gears, with an IC engine you need LOTS of reduction. That brings me to a point I almost forgot: Welding, learn how to do it, you're going to have to fab and weld all kinds of things.
Anyway, you want a fairly good-sized engine that will be able to produce some torque at an easy speed, partly to reduce the need for heavy/complicated/power robbing reduction stages. A relatively easy way to get part of your reduction is using a vehicle differential with welded spider gears, (in the old days we called that a Lincoln Locker,) but weight and its distribution is a constant reality in a small sternwheel boat, you need to use a pick-up truck unit so you can get 4:11, 4:56, 4:89 gearing.
And then you cut off the axle housings and all the brake stuff and use pillow blocks outboard to support the axles, now you've got a reduction unit with a U-joint input that you can connect up a transmission/engine to that and have industrial V-belts/pulleys, (or chain/sprockets,) at each end of the axles to run out to the wheel shaft.
If you can stand the weight, just get rid of the brake stuff, you'd also save on pillow blocks, mounts, and having to fab inner oil seals at the differntial.
Multiple chain reductions are fairly lightweight but require bearing blocks, shafts, supports, and GUARDS so no one gets an arm cut off, also chain is expensive and a maintenance hog.
Start looking around at old industrial drives, even old rusty farm equipment, stuff that was used to run conveyor systems and mow fields, you got to get inventive if you don't have a fortune to blow.
The wheel? There is only one way to get propulsive efficiency out of a sternwheel, DIAMETER, as much as you dare.
You need it big enough so that you can have lots of floats without them being too close to one another.
Only in a fairly small section of their travel are they doing much work to move the boat, much of their effort is either pushing water down at some angle or lifting water up, neither of which add productive thrust., a larger diameter helps to alleviate some of that.
Me? I would forget about split wheels unless I was going to use a sound-enclosed marine generator set and electric drive.
But 15>20 hp motors are not cheap, neither are speed controllers. And keeping water out and away from high voltages and currents is not cheap or easy at all.
Well, for now I'm tired of typing, but look at the Atkin boats, look at some YouTube, you'll get some ideas to run thru your mind.
You've given me plenty to consider. I'll respond more later. Thanks.
 
The commentator in post 12 offers misleading information wrt to choosing power.
His comment that Torque is the predominate factor when choosing an engine and Horsepower does not really matter. This is incorrect.

Torque is measured as a static twist in a shaft. For discussion purposes say it is 1oo pounds feet . If you maintain this torque in a shaft while it turns at
say 100 rpm, it produces X Horsepower. If you maintain this torque in the shaft while it turns at 200 rpm, it produces 2X horsepower.
( by saying that "you maintain this torque" I mean that the load/resistance to twist is increased as it is this load that creates the demand for the HP requirements)


Horsepower is Force through Distance with respect to Time.
If it takes 50 Hp to push your boat through the water ( Force component) at the speed (Distance and Time component) that you wish to drive it at; irrespective of drive mechanism losses, paddle wheel efficiencies and hull drag, you need a engine that produces 50hp

That does not mean that you pick a 50HP engine. As a 50 hp engine would be then running at an extremely high RPM and will not be fuel efficient.
 
I'm sure that most everybody on this forum understands the relationship between Hp and torque.
Neither the commentator in the video or we on this forum have any need to be pedantic, driving down endless rabbit holes that don't lead to anyplace worthwhile.
Theoretically you could turn a paddlewheel with a leaf blower engine if you had enough gear reduction to provide the necessary torque, but the gear reduction necessary to go from many thousands of rpm to ~60 rpm would absorb most of the power you started out with.
I believe that the guy was only trying to make the point that having an engine with high torque at low rpms enables a more efficient propulsive system without having to use massive amounts of reduction gearing.
In that respect he is totally right.
The old hot rod saying, "There's no replacement for displacement" is quite true for paddlewheel drive.
 
I will need to sit down and get an estimate of how much hp it would take to move a through the water with a paddle wheel. Actual hp needed isn't critical at this point. I can install whatever hp I eventually need. No more than 10' wide no more than 25-30' long. It needs to be trailerable and it needs to fit through my smallest shop door. Try to keep the weight under 10,000 lbs.
At this point I am most focused with what it is going to take. Engine(s), transmission(s), gearboxes, shafts, etc. And the layout of these pieces. Aesthetics and functionality both matter.
The only absolutes at this point are: Not steam powered, not side wheel and not noisy.
At this point I am still leaning towards the split rear wheel. To the argument of it isn't worth the effort. Worth is relative. I guess my question would be is a split wheel hurting anything? More hardware to break but also some redundancy. I'd lose some wheel width by splitting it in half.
I kind of like the one engine powering 2 transmissions option. One cool looking big old engine. More open real estate.
2 engines w/ attached transmissions like an Atomic 4 for example. Fairly compact package. Total control of individual wheels.
I appreciate all of the input even if I don't respond directly. All the information is good. Just need to find the time to watch videos and do my reading. Thanks.
 
I know guys using stern wheel paddle boat to make excursions on shallow river and the lake. They have convince me that they have big tug power when compare to propeller .

That goes against all properly recorded data. If paddle wheels were better, tugs would use them. They are inefficient and prone to breaking and fouling.
 
Not steam powered, not side wheel and not noisy.
That would be a modern engine with a well designed and matched muffler

One cool looking big old engine. More open real estate.
2 engines w/ attached transmissions like an Atomic 4 for example. Fairly compact package.
A big old engine will no be smooth and quiet as you want. Atomic 4 engines are not very efficient. Further, you would have to add a second transmission with a reduction gear to go from 2800 RPM to 80 RPM, which is a 35:1 ratio. You can either have a very large gear or a series of reductions. Open crankshafts and gears, like some suggest, need to have a protection cage or most likely people will get injured or killed, particularly in a small boat.
 
I'm sure that most everybody on this forum understands the relationship between Hp and torque.
Neither the commentator in the video or we on this forum have any need to be pedantic, driving down endless rabbit holes that don't lead to anyplace worthwhile.

Probably most contributors do but in general the average person does not.

Theoretically you could turn a paddlewheel with a leaf blower engine if you had enough gear reduction to provide the necessary torque, but the gear reduction necessary to go from many thousands of rpm to ~60 rpm would absorb most of the power you started out with.

A 50 cc leafblower will produce betwen 3 to 9 hp. Assuming that Theoretically you could turn a paddle wheel with a leaf blower engine if you had enough gear reduction it would not turn
the paddle wheel at 60 rpm if the boat requires 50 hp to the paddle shaft.

My point of taking his comments to task were simple. It is not torque that will drive boat but HP. You gear reduce to increase the torque but the HP is the decisive factor.

The OP will be at some point be trying to determine how many HP to put behind his build. The commentator said that he has a 105hp 4BT diesel.

Horsepower of a 50 cc leaf blower engine
Displacement(cc) 49.5
· Rated power output and Rotational Speed (HP/RPM) 2.8/7500
· Max. Power output and Corresponding Rotational speed(HP/RPM) 3.35/8000
 
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I will continue to digest the info that has been brought forward so far. A steerable sternwheel is something I hadn't thought of. Maybe for good reason. We'll see. The other configurations I'll have to look into. Thanks. Ron
A steerable paddlewheel sounds like a terrible idea! I’m picturing an articulating paddle wheel at the stern which would require a substantial keel under the hull, usually a bad idea on a shallow draft barge type hull.
Maximum maneuverability means spreading the wheels as far apart as is practical.
Moving side wheels towards mid ships should cause it to turn on a dime, and possibly operate without any rudders.
 
You might want to talk to the operators of the riverboats in Taylors Falls MN about dual stern wheels and maneuverability. They may operate the only class I - II whitewater paddle wheel tour boats in the world. The captain said that paddle boat captains from other places can get a bit panicky going around one of the islands. The river can be crawling with clueless canoeists on weekends, so they have to have good control over the boat. It's a 4 1/2 hour drive.
0d1c60420d9840213663e460ab77929c.jpg

Visual complexity is good for getting attention. Mechanical simplicity keeps you clear of the rocks. Drive the eyewash with a chain off the wheel axle and drive the axle with hydraulics.

Complexity can be used to some degree of advantage, such as feathering paddle wheels. The website below has a lot of paddle wheel stuff.
3453-191012110123.jpeg

Paddleducks - Feathering paddlewheel. http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=d01994555ac3a4699413187745c8911a;action=gallery;sa=view;id=4144

This page, if you scroll down far enough has a sideways fully submerged paddle wheel, but the page heading is of more interest in some respects.
Weapons, warfare and industrial idiocy
The random rantings of an old, 63 years, knifemaker (please don't say "bladesmith") on tools, technology and the world's unfortunate tendency toward overcomplication.
 
My original question had to do with having a split rear wheel on a paddle wheeler. I want to thank the people that provided info to that question.
I didn't provide any of my history. Maybe I should have. I have fabricated and built stuff all my life. Sailcars, hovercraft, boats, cars. With the exception of the sailcar( I was 10 years old) everything has been engines, hydraulics and gears. I know about heat, noise, safety, etc. I understand hp and torque. I know not everybody does.
I don't need to see the experts bickering.
So with that said, I am done.
 
Promises, promises...

No pictures, no plans, no progress?

You're welcome.
 
You might want to talk to the operators of the riverboats in Taylors Falls MN about dual stern wheels and maneuverability. They may operate the only class I - II whitewater paddle wheel tour boats in the world. The captain said that paddle boat captains from other places can get a bit panicky going around one of the islands. The river can be crawling with clueless canoeists on weekends, so they have to have good control over the boat. It's a 4 1/2 hour drive.
0d1c60420d9840213663e460ab77929c.jpg

Visual complexity is good for getting attention. Mechanical simplicity keeps you clear of the rocks. Drive the eyewash with a chain off the wheel axle and drive the axle with hydraulics.

Complexity can be used to some degree of advantage, such as feathering paddle wheels. The website below has a lot of paddle wheel stuff.
3453-191012110123.jpeg

Paddleducks - Feathering paddlewheel. http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=d01994555ac3a4699413187745c8911a;action=gallery;sa=view;id=4144

This page, if you scroll down far enough has a sideways fully submerged paddle wheel, but the page heading is of more interest in some respects.
Thank you for this info. It is very on point. So, in response to my original, a split rear wheel makes a difference.. You sent this when I was typing up my resignation. Project is still on.
 
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