Non-foiling trimarans under 20'

[kleppar]

Yes, the boat will have to disassembled, but I have been told this is easy. How will Kanka compare to W17?

 

[Russell Brown]

That Kanka 14 looks good to me. It seems well designed and it's attractive. Not sure why it's so short though. For the same work it could be longer and longer is better.

 

[Cholsson]

Love the subject Nonfoiling
Maybe I can add my hobby project Outlaw to the list, 1.1. Three hulls, all more or less same volume, ( absolutely no foiling) but can fly on one hull
Can handle two persons, (but faster with one.). If bigger waves, then a wet ride
Chryz10 Outlaw https://cholsson.wordpress.com/

Other projects I like, To add to the list.
Ninja Spider

http://www.sail-the-difference.com/index.php?id=41
Strike 15
Strike 15 Trimaran Owner’s Report | Small Trimarans http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/strike-15-trimaran-owners-report/

20 foot trimaran (was prev foiling, but rebuilt to absolutely not foil, but to be fast)

DIY Trimaran Sea Trial 2 | Small Trimarans http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/diy-trimaran-sea-trial-2/

 

[kleppar]

My criteria, in addition to non foiling and less than 20 ft., are:

• reasonable comfort; a cockpit to sit in with the ability to shift positions at various points of sail, rather than something flat to sit or clutch on to. I want to be able to enjoy a cup of coffee, to sit in some comfort etc.
• easy launch and recovery from beach; often means a flat bottom and low weight (I would prefer below 150 kg)
• good performance
• an experienced naval architect who has developed the boat both conceptually (theory) and practically (usage)
• folding or easy disassembly for transport and winter storage
• carrying capacity for more than one person

So far Mike Waters´ W17 fits the bill best, in my opinion (in addition to the production boat Astus 16.5). When you buy his plans, you not only get a good work description for the build, but on his website you will find equal to a very detailed and hands on handbook for sailing and maintaining the boat. See his sailing tips as an example of this.
As I am not much of a builder myself, I shall be looking for somebody in Europe willing to undertake this for me....Suggestions are welcome.

 

[Cholsson]

Ok, Then I will comment on my project below...

My criteria, in addition to non foiling, are:

• less than 18 ft. length (Sorry, its 19 with bow spirit)
• reasonable comfort; a cockpit to sit in with the ability to shift positions at various points of sail, rather than something flat to sit or clutch on to. I want to be able to enjoy a cup of coffee, to sit in some comfort etc. (No comfort at all. Full focus, or you will screw up)
• easy launch from beach; often means a flat bottom and low weight (I would prefer below 150 kg) (160 kg, 4 meters wide, not too easy)
• good performance (YES... when its 15 knots of wind, its amazing! 20 knots of wind or more, I will flip, and less than 10, its slow)
• an experienced naval architect who has developed the boat both conceptually (theory) and practically (usage) (No, I'm hobby designer, dont know that much, more trial and error... and fails.. and redesign and more fails
• 
• folding or easy disassembly for transport and winter storage (Not that easy)
• carrying capacity for more than one person (One person, and its fast, two makes it lot slower)

So far Mike Waters´ W17 fits the bill best, in my opinion (in addition to the production boat Astus 16.5). When you buy his plans, you not only get a good work description for the build, but on his website you will find equal to a very detailed and hands on handbook for sailing and maintaining the boat. See his sailing tips as an example of this.
As I am not much of a builder myself, I shall be looking for somebody in Europe willing to undertake this for me....Suggestions are welcome.

 

[kleppar]

Thanks for feedback; if I were 40 years younger this would be perfect. Mike Waters is 85, still sailing singlehanded!

 

[Russell Brown]

Anyone here sail on or build a W17? I thought the design got a lot of hype in Wooden Boat magazine, but the design looked ho-hum to me. Anyone else have an opinion?

 

[Tiny Turnip]

My criteria, in addition to non foiling and less than 20 ft., are:

• reasonable comfort; a cockpit to sit in with the ability to shift positions at various points of sail, rather than something flat to sit or clutch on to. I want to be able to enjoy a cup of coffee, to sit in some comfort etc.
• easy launch and recovery from beach; often means a flat bottom and low weight (I would prefer below 150 kg)
• good performance
• an experienced naval architect who has developed the boat both conceptually (theory) and practically (usage)
• folding or easy disassembly for transport and winter storage
• carrying capacity for more than one person

Here you go. 16ft. 100kg rigged, empty. A modest, unstayed rig. I've had 11 knots. Its sister claims 15 knots. I think that's pushing it, tbh. The flickr link is my last Scotland trip, two people camping. The first video shows the twin prototypes, the second an updated, slightly smaller version.

I can't guarantee that a qualified naval architect has designed them, but Solway Dory have been around a long time, and sail their own boats regularly.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tinyturnip/30072286707/in/album-72157673977464988/

 

[Tiny Turnip]

(Here's the cup of coffee. I'm gonna make a bigger cupholder to take the jetboil )

 

[upchurchmr]

Russel,

I had an extended conversation with the W17 designer, it ended up being non pleasant.
Looks to me like there are lots of claims, with not much justification - primarily about performance.
Simple questions I asked were never addressed, previous statements were just repeated.
I guess if you say it enough it is supposed to be true.

Eventually he finally said that the performance would not match a Weta and several other production boats.

That was enough for me.
Sorry I can't immediately find the thread.

 

[kleppar]

Hi, I found one thread where you and the W17 engage in a discussion, but no mention of Weta being faster:
W17 Trimaran? https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/w17-trimaran.57083/

upchurchmr, I am interested to know if you ever found the trimaran according to your SOR (as quoted here)?

The SOR:
17' max (+ a few inches)
Day sailing - no cabin.
1-2 persons
Wide beam. Some foldup variation.
Relatively large sail area. (I have a classic Tornado rig and a Hobie 16 rig)
Greater than 100% ama volume - to fly the main hull.
Most likely strip planked with glass. Possibly plywood, but I don't really like flat surfaces.
No lifting foils - at least to start.​

About Solway trimarans - I looked at these several years ago......looks good, but even the Osprey it is still a canoe with outriggers, rather than a "proper" trimaran.

 

[upchurchmr]

Kleppar,

I never found something I really wanted.
I have plans for a Cross 18, but they are very simple and a bit dated on several issues. And it is plywood (see my bias above).

The W17 comment by the designer was on his web page, but you would have to read every last word on all the pages to find it.
I did have some email with the designer, but that didn't work any better. Requesting facts rather than glowing advertisement statements seemed to be offensive.
Fundamentally I found the boat to be heavy (more than I wanted), I didn't think the hull shape was the best for better performance, I didn't think the daggerboard was going to be large enough, and the sail area was less than a comparable length beach cat. I believe that a tri with more displacement than a beach cat should be able to handle bigger sail. Anything that was intended to sail on an ama and the main hull has no appeal to me (meaning the ama needs to have greater volume than the total weight). I also didn't like the primitive folding method. And most of his claims seemed unfounded.
I also haven't seen much in the way of builder/sailor reports except on his web site - which seemed to be done very early. No verifiable performance claims and no recognizable benefit for the "wing mast".

There was a person locally who had bought plans - I don't think he ever built the boat - a missed opportunity to actually see the thing.

I was recently looking at a sailing video of the Osprey, a one off - not the Solway boat.
I'm afraid I'm getting old, picky, cranky, and maybe looking for an excuse to not spend a bunch of money

 

[kleppar]

Thanks for reply! You write "Anything that was intended to sail on an ama and the main hull has no appeal to me", but it seems W17 was never intended to sail with on one float only, if I understand you correctly.

Folding method: I guess an even simpler method would be sliding tubes, as used by Astus. For your information, the W17 designer claims he has developed a swing beam folding system being only slightly heavier than the present fold-on-top system; the new system is meant for a W19, but can also be used for W17. Anyway, maybe you should just get yourself a production Astus 16.5; it for certain is fast, and uses the very simple sliding tube folding system.

I have owned several small monohulls, and am now in the process of having a 23 ft. cabin trimaran built; all designed by elderly naval architects; François Vivier, Erik Lerouge, and now, possibly by Mike Waters. Naval architecture is a slow evolving science, with many factors to consider, lending itself to hands on design by sailor-engineers such as these elderly gentlemen. That is my opinion; you and I seem to read Mike Waters´website in a different manner - I do not find it awash with advertisements; on the contrary I find lots of useful and practical advise.

As to benefit of a wing mast - one does not have to claim the benefit; I thought the advantage of a wing mast belongs to the realm of common and recognized knowledge. My 23. ft. Libertist 703 will also have a rotating carbon wing mast. Mr Lerouge claims deploying such a mast is the first place to start if you want performance....

 

[Vantage475T]

At almost smack on 20ft is the Sting 600 found here:
https://www.sting600.net/
Can foil but the Sport version doesn't.
Quite weighty I think but I think it looks like a great piece of kit.

 

[Dolfiman]

I think this one , the Tricat 20, can be (most of the times) compatible with a cup of coffee at helm in dry conditions :
Le TRICAT 20 - Tricat http://www.trimaran-tricat.com/le-tricat-20/#1458032587450-5cba73ee-e694db94-9814