Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

[Chris Ostlind]

Maybe he shouldn't because the info in the link is someone else's intellectual property.

Yes, perhaps, except for... That process would be fairly outside of the normals for previous representations AND it would be OK if the original article were to be fully attributed and accompanied by a simple letter from the publisher allowing said reprint.

Both of these require Doug to do some homework and quickly send a note to the editorial folks at Daily Sail.

How about it, Doug?

I've queried Sailing Anarchy in the past as to reprinting with attribution from their pages and Scot has always been of the, "Yeah, sure, please do" position, knowing that it's cheap advertisement and will, eventually, send more traffic his way.

 

[Paul B]

Yes, perhaps, except for... That process would be fairly outside of the normals for previous representations AND it would be OK if the original article were to be fully attributed and accompanied by a simple letter from the publisher allowing said reprint.

I've queried Sailing Anarchy in the past as to reprinting with attribution from their pages and Scot has always been of the, "Yeah, sure, please do" position, knowing that it's cheap advertisement and will, eventually, send more traffic his way.

I would point out the obvious, that you are comparing a paid site to one that is not, but that wouldn't matter to you.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

I would point out the obvious, that you are comparing a paid site to one that is not, but that wouldn't matter to you.

Paul,

1. Are you in publishing or any profession related to publishing?

2. Publishing consent is given all the time by organizations that sell their editorial content. It's a routine matter between firms and can be done as easily as someone simply asking and the other guy simply saying yes.

3. Before you feel the need to ask... 35+ years as a professional still photographer, cameraman and director for film/video productions. I sell my work all the time to magazines, publishers, advertising agencies, corporations, architectural firms, contractors and manufacturers.

If Daily Sail finds the potential a positive for their business, they will easily allow it to happen and may even encourage it, with attribution and byline credit requirements depending on use. If they would rather not see their editorial content in print elsewhere, they only have to indicate that to the requesting party... or negotiate a fee.

 

[Paul B]

Paul,

1. Are you in publishing or any profession related to publishing?

2. Publishing consent is given all the time by organizations that sell their editorial content. It's a routine matter between firms and can be done as easily as someone simply asking and the other guy simply saying yes.

3. Before you feel the need to ask... 35+ years as a professional still photographer, cameraman and director for film/video productions. I sell my work all the time to magazines, publishers, advertising agencies, corporations, architectural firms, contractors and manufacturers.

If Daily Sail finds the potential a positive for their business, they will easily allow it to happen and may even encourage it, with attribution and byline credit requirements depending on use. If they would rather not see their editorial content in print elsewhere, they only have to indicate that to the requesting party... or negotiate a fee.

Wow, all that expertise, just so you could state the obvious. Impressive.

But your initial post was not about that, was it?

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils---Bladerider Olympic Proposal

From this site: http://www.bladerider.org/introduction.html
-------------

The Background...

The Laser was selected as the Men's Single Hander Event in the 2008 Olympic Games but in November 2008, the ISAF Council will make a decision on the most suitable Class/Equipment for the Men's Single Hander Event in 2012.
The Status...

The International Moth Class has been proposed by the Hong Kong Sailing Federation as a suitable Class for the Men's Single Hander Event at the 2012 Olympic Games.
The Competition...

In addition to the Moth, the Laser, Finn, Musto Skiff and Europe have also been shortlisted as possible Equipment choices the Men's Single Hander Event in 2012.
The Objective...

To select a Bladerider Moth for the Men's Single Hander Event in the 2012 Olympics.
The Choice...

Option 1: The Bladerider FX Moth - cheaper alternative to the carbon version.
Weight: approx 40kg (fully rigged)
Price: 7.750 Euro or US$11,500


Option 2: The Bladerider RX Moth - lighter alternative to the fiberglass version
Weight: approx 32kg (fully rigged)
Price: 9.750 Euro or US$13,950
The Requirement...

ISAF Council to vote in the Moth Class for the Men's Single Hander Event and select the most suitable Bladerider for the 2012 Olympic Games.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Personally, I can't wait to see any Moth foiler operating in that wonderful Olympic weed patch known as Qingdao.

Can anyone say... beaten by a Laser around the course?

Screw the foiling Moth. My opinion is that the ultra exciting Kiteboard should be included in the Olympics if any new type of boat were to be added and this is further enhanced by the fact that a French kiteboarder was the first sailing boat of any kind to crack the magical, 50 knot barrier. They can also operate right next to the shore, run slaloms, do aerials (Doug should like that with his desire to see Moths jump) and do it much, much faster than any Moth alive.

Come on, boys, if you really want to think outside the box and show the world what's happening, then put your energy into something that will give max return on investment.

Chris

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils-Olympics: Yes!

Lets see: I guess if a kite board is a boat then a waterski is a boat? A boat would have to support its crew with buoyant lift at rest, wouldn't it? I think what the kiteboarders have done is extraordinarily great for a wind powered craft on water. But a kiteboard is not a sailboat nor is it the fastest wind powered craft on water: as of today the FOILER Hydroptere appears to have that honor at an amazing 52 knots(if ratified).
And the foiler efficiency compared to the kite seems greater: carrying 11,000lb(approx), 8 crew(est) in significantly less wind than its record speed.
I think kiteboarding should be considered for the Olympics but not to the exclusion of the fastest sailboats-like the foiler Moth-perhaps a separate kite category?

 

[BWD]

As of today it's 50.57 and rising for the kiters.
With burst speeds over 57...
All tamed by individuals with brain, muscle, and nerves of steel.

A boat would have to support its crew with buoyant lift at rest, wouldn't it]

Why? (rhetorical question...)

What if you are part of the boat?

The kiter -or windsurfer for that matter- functions as a structural part of these "boats," contributing to both static and dynamic stability and operation. Sailor attributes are integral to the whole design process and certainly to performance in these craft.
Further, the sailor contributes not only ballast and control but buoyancy. Ever heard of a water start?
The sailor is part of the "boat," and when it is done right, the "boat" feels like part of the sailor.
Less with more!!!

Moths are cool, but as far as applicability there remains the fact I can go as fast as $20000 pro-sailed moth on a windsurfer I bought in 1993 for $1200. Admittedly I get killed on a beat, though!

But whatever the weapon of choice to push the envelope, I myself see little need to retreat into old-fashioned notions and arguments....
although...
If you must argue about something, I think the "rule 52" type arguments about what is and isn't "legal" or worthy of respect are more salient. And I think you should be able to sail without batteries. but that's another story....

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Lets see: I guess if a kite board is a boat then a waterski is a boat? A boat would have to support its crew with buoyant lift at rest, wouldn't it?

You realize that what you have done here, by inference, is to acknowledge that every aspect of the kiteboarding equation qualifies it as a sailboat. Your one hangup seems to be the flotation aspects of the board itself; that it needs to float the crew weight, correct?

Do you mean anything like the ability of Mirabaud to be able to hold itself buoyant without any movement by the crew to keep it upright? That kind of boat? You seem ready to recognize that particular craft as a boat. You've even crowed about it as such, yet it has not one chance in hell of keeping itself upright without fully active crew movement. A boat, really?

I think what the kiteboarders have done is extraordinarily great for a wind powered craft on water. But a kiteboard is not a sailboat nor is it the fastest wind powered craft on water: as of today the FOILER Hydroptere appears to have that honor at an amazing 52 knots(if ratified).

If it was only momentary, Doug, how can it be a ratified record? And as has been posted by BWD, if we get to post momentary speeds, then the big boat is still out of the game. How far out on this foolish limb would you like to take your argument? Ahh, heck... Go as far as you like... you still don't have enough to wipe away that which has already been done.

I disagree with the idea that a kiteboard is not a sailboat. You are still struggling with that "not a foiler" thing, aren't you, Doug? You just can't get your head around the fact that some boat other than the one you have pre-anointed in your mind, has snagged that glorious record right out from under the high dollar, foiling effort?

And the foiler efficiency compared to the kite seems greater: carrying 11,000lb(approx), 8 crew(est) in significantly less wind than its record speed.

And the kiteboard is less fiddly for each knot per hour. The kiteboard has fewer moving parts to break, less susceptibility to catastrophic damage and is far easier to rig for a speed run. Geez any one of these kite guys can have their rig up and ready, make a couple of speed passes and be back on the beach before Hydrop ever gets out to the starting line. That kind of efficiency?

That concept is irrelevant and you know it. You seek to pile any detritus on the flattened cake so you can make it look good. Unfortunately, it does nothing to change the facts before us. Kiteboards are sailboats and they are classified as such.

I think kiteboarding should be considered for the Olympics but not to the exclusion of the fastest sailboats-like the foiler Moth-perhaps a separate kite category?

The Moth foiler is not the fastest sailboat. We've already covered that bit above and to put paid to that idea, by your own dreamscape admission, as false as it is, Hydrop is the fastest sailboat. So, why not put that craft in the Oly Games instead of the dumpy Moth foiler which would see only empty horizon should Hydrop ever engage one in a head to head speed run.

Every single one of these arguments you have presented are seriously short of pragmatic thinking.

I'm going to post this answer over at the Hydrop thread as well, since it contains so much info relative to the topic.

Chris

 

[wind_apparent]

Why all this "fastest" pissing contest? You know whats fast, a hydrofoil speedboat like "Miss Budwiser" lets see the kiteboarders go 100kts ever.
Kiteboardings fun and has a distinct sensation, so does foiling. There is more to all of this than all out speed. A 12' skiff is faster than a Flying Scott, but I know which one I would like to float around the lake in with my friends doing a "beer can" race.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Why all this "fastest" pissing contest? You know whats fast, a hydrofoil speedboat like "Miss Budwiser" lets see the kiteboarders go 100kts ever.

Doggone, it, Sam! Why do you always have to be so practical?

Seriously, I long ago recognized that the likely fastest sailboat on the planet, at present, will eventually be L'Hydroptere... as soon as the guys can get their collective act sorted. It's just too big and too powerful and too deeply funded for anything else to compete... at present.

Now, here's the admission and Baigent touched on it peripherally this morning... I enjoy tweaking Douglas' head about which boat got to 50 knots first. There, I said it.

Doug had gotten far too annoying with all this syrupy slathering about how Hydrop was gonna be the first to fifty and it just tickled me to no end that a bone simple kite boarder with a sub $10K USD rig had flown through the course to be the first through the speed barrier. Yeah, call it mercenary humor, if you want. Can't say I haven't had the same kind of laugh about my own exploits.

I like the big boat. Like it a lot actually. But, it's not even close to the same thing as a solo guy standing on a potato chip, hooked to the forces of the angry Gods of southern Africa by mere strands of cord, with a taught wing yanking him down the speed course. Nothing.

Now, back to our dewy-eyed webwatch, as one brave guy in chilly Colorado tosses safety and shame to the wind in the name of a personal expression. ;-)

Chris
www.lunadadesign.com

 

[wind_apparent]

Doggone, it, Sam! Why do you always have to be so practical?

its a curse.

Seriously, I long ago recognized that the likely fastest sailboat on the planet, at present, will eventually be ... as soon as the guys can get their collective act sorted. It's just too big and too powerful and too deeply funded for anything else to compete... at present.

Agreed, (damn French and their endless bucket of Euro's)

Now, here's the admission and Baigent touched on it peripherally this morning... I enjoy tweaking Douglas' head about which boat got to 50 knots first. There, I said it.

I can't find fault with that, 2 things in this world I love, sarcasm and head games.

I like the big boat. Like it a lot actually. But, it's not even close to the same thing as a solo guy standing on a potato chip, hooked to the forces of the angry Gods of southern Africa by mere strands of cord, with a taught wing yanking him down the speed course. Nothing.

I like it too (like anything crazy that goes against what "should" be). as you have said they both (L'Hydroptere and kiteboards) belong in their own relm of "stupid" along with windsurfers, rockcrawlers, dragracers, skydiving, monofoils, Stuntplanes, barstool racers, downhill mountainbikes, and all the other things that make you feel so "alive". Obviously a waste of time and money that would be much better spent designing a better TV remote or video game system.

Now, back to our dewy-eyed webwatch, as one brave guy in chilly Colorado tosses safety and shame to the wind in the name of a personal expression. ;-)

I have no shame , My personal goal is the 30kt mark. (I think at 50kts I would need to change my wetsuit, have you seen the speed weeks crash's? I never want to go close to that fast). Keep fighting the good fight, I'm off to continue in my quest for the ultimate keelboat foiler design.

 

[Doug Halsey]

Foiler Moths in Qingdao ?

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind>>
Personally, I can't wait to see any Moth foiler operating in that wonderful Olympic weed patch known as Qingdao.

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out to Chris that the Qingdao Olympics have already happened. The 2012 Olympics will be in England.

Can anyone say... beaten by a Laser around the course?

I think the foiler Moths have proven that they can get around most courses faster than the non-foiler Moths & it would be a real fluke if the Lasers beat them.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

It's over?... Geez, what the heck was I thinking then?

Just a tongue in cheek thing, Doug H. I couldn't resist after seeing that green, endless island of stuff at the Qingdao sailing facility.

Much as I enjoy the whole foiling thing, I still think that kiteboards would be a far better addition to the Olympics than Moths.

Let's list them again:

1. Shallow water sailing ability
Important because this brings the riders right up to the location of the live audience. An, in your face, kind of thing that is incredbily risky for anything with lifting foils. It's also perfect for TV camera placements and let's face it, the Olympics are all about the cash that comes in from the TV revenue and not the ticket sales.

2. Amazingly versatile sailing capabilities
The kites can adapt to all kinds of riding locations far easier than can a foiler. Ask the foil guys if they want to ride their boats in shore-breaking surf. Heck ask them about riding in any breaking surf, and I don't mean the white cap crumbles on a windy day. I mean real, thumping, overhead surf. Ask them if they can do consecutive 360's when they jump out of the water and land them successfully, time after time, and then immediately launch into another. Can the foilers run their boats up and over jumping ramps, positioned for best TV and audience enjoyment? Are the Moth foilers the fastest sailing boat on the water? Would they like to compete with the Kiteboarders in a run-off to see if they can beat the kites in a straight line event... winner being the boat that goes to the Olympics?

3. Kites are affordable.
They are completely accessible to the viewers as a sport that they could go out and become engaged, whereas a Moth foiler is up just shy of the $20K mark and entirely inaccessible for the everyday bloke.

4. Kiteboarders have much better TV "Q" ratings as individuals
With strong cross-over similarities to the whole snowboarding crowd, Kiters will create instant personal appeal through personality and lifestyle and clothing. Can you say, clothing and sporting goods company endorsements that have huge potential cash realities attached? How many folks do you see wandering the beach, their school, evenings out, etc., in rad, Moth foiler gear?

5. Folks relate to kite flying.
Recreational kiting is common everywhere in the world. Everyone has either flown their own kite, or have been a part of a family that has flown kites. The sport is International in scope and can be practiced anyplace on the globe. Instant relevance to a global audience. The same can not be said for Moth foilers.

6. Kiteboarding is totally cross-over capable to the Winter Games
Snow slaloms, Kiter-cross, uphill races, aerials and on and on. I haven't seen a foiler yet that could make the move to a frozen lake while keeping its foils as the primary sailing device. Don't go and get all wanky on me here and suggest that a DN iceboat is equivalent. It isn't.

I can go on here, but the point has been made and I have still not seen anyone make a list for Moth foiling that comes anywhere even close. Remeber, it's all about the money thing with the Olympics, so if you can't give the attachment of the new event a serious cash, cha-ching value, then it will be taking a back seat to one that can. Those five rings make money.

Clearly, the best new boat for the Olympics (should they actually do such a thing) is the Kiteboard and all its potential events, well beyond anything capable of the Moths.

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design
www.lunadadesign.com

 

[Doug Halsey]

Foiler Moths Vs. Kiteboards for the Olympics

Chris:
I was basically just trying to razz you a bit about missing Qingdao. Possibly nobody loves foilers more than I do, but I actually agree with you that kiteboards could make a much more exciting event for the Olympics.

One concern I have about Bladeriders in the Olympics is that either:

1-In 4 years' time, a one-design offshoot of the Moth class (frozen in time as of about now) would be much inferior to the more up-to-date designs,

or

2-The choice of the Bladerider for the Olympics might stifle the further development of the Foiler Moth, by siphoning off many of the best sailors & designers.

Doug H.