Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils---Wand Development

Graham Vials on wand position:
"Basically I would stay well clear of the centre wand. I found that there was disturbance between the wand and the C/b. It wasn't particularly noticable reaching or beating, but was a real problem broad reaching down the run. To cut a long story short, what happens is that you get this weird slipping sideways feeling as the main foil stalls. Linton places a fence 150mm (ish) up the foil, so the section below this keeps working, but as the foil above stalls the boat slips sideways. Needing to place a fence on the foil adds drag."
------------------
Interestingly, the midship wand or midship dual wand has appeared on some of the newest bi-foilers yet produced. It will be interesting to see how this development proceeds and even more interesting to see who in the Moth class is first to cut out wand weight and drag 100% with an effective manual main foil control.
--------------
edit: Electronic foil control system by Chris Miller
http://www.culnane.net/dc/moth/papers/ConSys.pdf?nocache=512321520

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Graham Vials on wand position:
"Basically I would stay well clear of the centre wand....

Well, that might be a nice bit of info on the subject, Doug, but it does nothing to address the rest of the observation from my post; That being, the same, if not more, foil disturbance will be present whenever the boat is sailed in waters where any kind of crap is present in the water... any kind. Because if the dragging wand can instigate the kind of flow disturbance you and Graham are suggesting, then any tiny shred of weed, flotsam, plastic... anything at all, will do the very same thing.

First: Personally, I think it's a nitpickers dream topic as there is no real end in sight for ridding the problems that might be present in the water. The problem was there when the foiling craze started, it's still there and getting worse as more and more crap is dumped in the waters and not one suggestion has appeared that might provide a solution. Instead, you seem to believe that some magic bullet is going to appear if the wands is moved and some indeterminate amount of sideslip is reduced. Amusing

Second: I have not seen any data from a substantive testing session, either tanked or open water, that would establish the phenomenon, or even be able to suggest just how much effect it is having...Nothing at all.

Third: Over at Bladerider, you have one of your chosen Gods of the genre, in Veal. He seems to be the kind of guy who goes to great lengths to prep his machine when racing, leaving no stone unturned in his search to extract every last shred of performance from his boat. Yet, curiously, he has won a collection of World Championships, serves as the Marketing front man and Ambassador of global good will for Bladerider, without, either his team of himself, ever shifting the wand location to avoid this suggested "disturbance of merit".

Fourth: Over at Sailing (Dinghy) Anarchy, there's an interesting thread running about the business of hitting fish of significant size while foiling and just how dangerous it is to the driver, as well as the boat.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=78836

Yet, here you are, suggesting that this bow wand placement is seriously detrimental to the leeway of the front foil while there are, and pardon the expression guys, much bigger fish to fry, with collision avoidance and crap disbursement.

Interestingly, the midship wand or midship dual wand has appeared on some of the newest bi-foilers yet produced. It will be interesting to see how this development proceeds and even more interesting to see who in the Moth class is first to cut out wand weight and drag 100% with an effective manual main foil control.

I know that this midship thing is just burning a hole in your boating guy psyche, Doug, but it does not seem to be a position that is held by the overwhelming majority of foiling dudes worldwide. The approach is seen on a few, very sketchy, prototype test beds, but it has not been adopted by anyone in the middle of the everyday foiling community. When that ratio reverse, you get back to us with the evidence and the benefits.

Personally, I'd much rather see the development of an infrared laser sensing device for foil adjustment, than some goofy, Neanderthalish mechanical wand thingy that could have come off the Wright Brothers first airplane. The rules in the Moth community should be expanded to allow for the development of that technology if they really think that their boats are running at the front end of the techno race. The boats, themselves, are already expensive enough to justify such a system, as the cost for same could be easily added without any whimper from the foily buying crowd.

I suggested this kind of thing several years ago right here on this forum and Doug... you said that some guys were working on it and that shortly, I'd be flat-out surprised as hell with what was going down.

So, here it is, pretty much three years later and not one shred of that kind of system is in the public view as a prototype, much less as a functional system. Those guys who absolutely do not care to race their boats and want the best and latest devices for go-fast sailing are still waiting for that magical gizmo. Nothing.


Chris
Lunada Design
www.lunadadesign.com

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Oh GEEEZ! If you guys think I'm a bit punchy with Ol' Doug when it comes to this midship wand thing of his, you should see what they're saying over at Sailing Anarchy

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=79035

For yank sake, Doug, why do you seek this abuse? Is this wand thing that important?

 

[RHough]

Oh GEEEZ! If you guys think I'm a bit punchy with Ol' Doug when it comes to this midship wand thing of his, you should see what they're saying over at Sailing Anarchy

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=79035

For yank sake, Doug, why do you seek this abuse? Is this wand thing that important?

Anyone check to see if there is an all inclusive patent on wands? Is there a patent holder just waiting to collect royalties if someone tries to produce a midships wand system?

 

[Paul B]

The midship planing wand was invented by Dr. Sam Bradfield and used on numerous multifoilers including the Rave and SKAT.
And now it turns out that at least the midship part has been adopted experimentally by Jean Pierre Ziegart who sailed to a 14th out of 36 boats in the Velocitec
Speed Challenge and to 31st out of about 95 boats at the UK Moth Worlds. He also used dual wands first pioneered by Thomas Jundt on the 26' bi-foiler Mirabaud. A midship wand also is used on the Foiling 18 "Access". Very interesting-

Wow, 31st place? Sounds like a great reason to go that way.

The desperation is obvious. Others are building their foilers and sailing them. Having nothing to of his own to offer, the **** **** again posts photos of someone else's work and tries to impress all with his "knowledge".

Meanwhile his pile-o-parts will never foil, just as his AeroStiff never foiled. At least his AeroStill got as far as the water, something the pile-o-parts has little chance of ever doing.

"Lookit mee Mommy, lookit meeee!"

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils-Jean Pierre's boat

Pictures(posted with permission from Thierry Martinez) of the dual midship wand Moth from the recent worlds:
(click for larger view)

 

[Paul B]

Incredibly, Sam Pascoe in the UK using new Full Force elliptical planform foils has just done 26.3 knots in a foiler Moth! Guys, thats over 30 MPH!
For an 11'(12.75' LOA) boat with 85 sq. ft. SA that is nothing short of absolutely fantastic.....

See the blurb under "Sailing Shorts"-
Scuttlebutt: Your Source for Daily Sailing News
Address:http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/

Somehow he accomplished this without the use of a midship wand.

Why would we imagine his foils look nothing like the ones on your non-foiling paddleboard?

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Interestingly enough... if you follow that Sailing Scuttlebutt link today, you'll find the kind of record that will leave your mouth hanging open, the real headline is all about an American Kitesurfer, Rob Douglas, who has cracked-off a totally out of this world speed record of 49.84 knots. And Douglas's craft is but four feet in length.

No insult intended, here, but that big number from Douglas makes the work of Pascoe look like a kid dorking around on his little red wagon.

The passage is here:
" NEW SPEED SAILING WORLD RECORD
(September 19, 2008) - With a run of 49.84 knots at the “Luderitz Speed
Challenge”, American kitesurfer Rob Douglas beat the outright World Speed
Sailing Record over 500 metres today at the speed strip at Luderitz in
Namibia in southern Africa. The previous record of 49.09 knots was set by
boardsailor Antoine Albeau. Douglas, 37, a former windsurfer who started
kitesurfing in June, had already beaten the previous US record earlier this
week."

This is nothing short of a Superman kind of effort on the part of Douglas. Picture yourself absolutely screaming along at an eyelash south of the magical 50 knot barrier with the water taking on the very surface qualities of concrete?

But the real news from Africa is that someone, on the same day burned one even faster than Douglas. Sebastien Cattelan of France, has blown apart the 500m course in Namibia at 50.1 knots, flashing through the elusive speed barrier and making real sailing history His record is yet to be ratified.

If you follow this link, there's a nice little article on Kiteboarding Magazine, complete with a vid clip.

http://www.kiteboardingmag.com/article/News/Rob-Douglas-sets-the-new-speed-record-at-499-knots

(Revised due to revisions, pre-bent strategies and cosmic illusions)

 

[Paul B]

I see, as I'm about to post this, that Doug has taken down his post about Sam Pascoe. He probably followed his own link to the 'Butt and saw the Douglas headline. Paul has the whole post quoted above, so it's not going to go unnoticed.

The quote from The Lord of Non-Foiling was from months or years ago, the first page of this thread. He didn't take it down, it just looks that way. Sorry.

Here's my question: How much of the 500m course does a kiteboard have to actually be in contact with H20 to qualify as "sailing"?

Here's another question: How do you know these guys are not using mid mounted wands????

Finally, why are you not claiming to know more than the guys who are there, doing it? If you are going to battle Druggie you need to fight on his level.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Here's my question: How much of the 500m course does a kiteboard have to actually be in contact with H20 to qualify as "sailing"?

I wish I knew that answer... I don't and I'm fairly lazy tonight, so it will have to wait.

Here's another question: How do you know these guys are not using mid mounted wands????

Because the angle of the dangle is not supportable

Finally, why are you not claiming to know more than the guys who are there, doing it? If you are going to battle Druggie you need to fight on his level.

While I may be a decently emotional guy (chicks dig me for that. "Oh, God, he's just sooo about his feelings. I saw him weep.") I tend to operate on a pragmatic level for things like this. Well, that and I'm too old to really wring it out at their level anymore. So, I gently speculate based on a balance of intellect and experience and it causes fewer problems.

Chris
www.lunadadesign.com

 

[Paul B]

I tend to operate on a pragmatic level for things like this. Well, that and I'm too old to really wring it out at their level anymore. So, I gently speculate based on a balance of intellect and experience and it causes fewer problems.

Chris
www.lunadadesign.com

I'll let you in on a secret. Read Ol' Druggie's posts. Make no sense, right?

Now go out to the shed and huff some glue. A LOT of glue.

Now re-read the posts. Better?

If not, back to the shed...

 

[wind_apparent]

So, I gently speculate based on a balance of intellect and experience and it causes fewer problems.

Chris
www.lunadadesign.com

That my friend will never work (might want to try the hole "huffing glue" thing)

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils-------- MachII

Great article about the latest Moth from the designer of the Bladerider! If you don't have a sub to the Daily Sail you should get one....
http://www.thedailysail.com/ism/art...086802574CE002F8841?OpenDocument&Page=1&Login

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Rewind

I'll repeat what I posted over at Sailing Anarchy some 1.5 hours ago...


"Lots of guys here who do not have paid subscriptions to Daily Sail, Doug. Why not do what you usually do and simply cut and paste the important points of the article? This depends on you being balanced and fair in your assessment of what is actually balanced and I do have some degree of reservation with that. All of the article would do nicely in that case.

Nevertheless, the URL you have provided is extremely limited in its value on this forum, resulting in a post which is just about useless for the People's Enthusiasts among the gang who read this."

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design
www.lunadadesign.com

 

[Paul B]

Why not do what you usually do and simply cut and paste the important points of the article?

Maybe he shouldn't because the info in the link is someone else's intellectual property.