Looking for suitable Veneer panneling

Discussion in 'Materials' started by CheoyLee39, Jul 1, 2014.

  1. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member holding true course

  2. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    There's a lot of Australian veneer suppliers.

    You can buy veneer that is adhesive backed, like tape, or you can use contact cement, like on Formica counters (you might look into 'wood' Formica type coverings instead of actual wood veneer). Titebond type glues can be applied to one or both surfaces, allowed to dry, positioned and then reactivated by heating in an oven or with an iron.

    I'm not sure how well hide glue would work in a marine environment.
     
  3. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    If you use a PVA style of glue (like TiteBond) joint creep will be a constant issue. It does work somewhat as a heat activated glue, but not well, as it's too soft when cured.

    With raw wood veneers, you can get them with "live" edges, which simply means you're buying a sliced veneer, basically the full width of the tree. The edges are called live, because they follow the shape of the bark. These are often only sold in "fitches", but worth it so you can get as wide as practical veneers. I have some teak and mahogany here, left over from a previous project. They average 6" (150 mm) in width and appear to have been "halved" from a full width cut, with one live edge and the other machined. Some are near 8" (200 mm) wide and the mahogany is 1/10" (2.5 mm), while the teak is 1/16" (1.6 mm).

    Yep, with veneers, you can get some ooze out through checks and other defects, so it's important to use a bleeder fabric, between the application brace or bag. The last time I veneered a transom, I bagged it, which simplified things considerably, though I could have just wedged a piece of plywood up against the transom, with similar success.
     
  4. CheoyLee39
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    CheoyLee39 Junior Member

    I have added a few photos (hopefully they loaded up) of the offending areas of veneer, also one that shows that my entire yacht is not in such a disgraceful state :eek: lol

    Essentially it is just a few areas in the aft cabin, port and starboard, essentially identical. As can be seen, the area on the hull (portal) needs re veneering, also a few bulkhead areas, the veneer has peeled off and most likely will come away complete with a little care. I have decided that most likely the section to the right of the portal above the nav table I will finish with lamipanel. I will actually be replacing all the old headlining with lamipanel.

    As can be seen, it really must be completed insitu, hence no vac bags or complicated systems, as I can not remove to undertake.

    The areas are not huge and wide, so applying strips of veneer either with heat activated or cold glue would suit I think. Andy, making my own veneer sounds like a nice project, but simply not practical, and the expense would not warrant the outcome. I also do not require a showroom finish, but something that looks clean, tidy, practical and esthetically pleasing.

    All the information received is so appreciated, It makes life easier, I am able to take bits and pieces from replies to put something practical together.
     

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  5. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    I guess you're done on the outside and you've fixed all the leaks..?
     
  6. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Choy Lee had an issue with fish oil based adhesives, used in their plywood back in that era. I had an off shore (Robb) 35 with this issue and had to replace all the bulkheads. I don't know if this particular boat has this issue, but it's in the time frame.

    Most of the photos show a surface veneer that's just done and should be pulled.
     
  7. SukiSolo
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    SukiSolo Senior Member

    Strangely enough, I have used almost exclusively 'raw' veneer for cold moulding and other work. This should be available in Oz but I suspect very few sources. As for veneer width, that depends on species but 200mm is not narrow. Probably used and seen up to 350mm width max. We even did one scull with a rosewood (Indian) outer, with a few flecks of book matched white heartwood!.

    I've used urea formadehydes and epoxies for working with veneer as the requirement to be waterproof was paramount. Thanks Jeff for confirming the 'squeeze through' problems possible, btw you need very little vacuum pressure to get a tight fit. Test a sample layup first. You need to find or make a glue spreader that works for your application, and allows adhesion with no bleed through. PAR's suggestion of part set epoxy may work for this, to be honest I've not tried that. However I can see it working with a hard rubber laminating roller to press the new veneer down. Will still need more clamping to retain whilst setting off.

    One big problem with commercial ply is the butt joint surface veneers which seem to be always dry at that joint. When you make your own surface veneers you can cut (knife along straight edge) and tape the joint, then back fill along it to prevent this.
     
  8. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    No need to think of vac bagging as complex or difficult, you can walk out of the hardware with plastic film, masking tape, some shade cloth & a bit of poly pipe(like for garden irrigation, only complication is a vac source, you can use a wet vac or similar but I feel they need some flow to not burn out & very low vac, I've used a belt driven car ac compressor I'm not sure but maybe a fridge compressor, or a compressed air venturi generator or a vac pump.... presto!
    Jeff.
     
  9. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member holding true course

    One fortunate aspect is the areas needing re-veneering are mostly surrounded by solid wood trim. I suggest fitting trim to those areas not currently so fitted. After the veneer job, re-installing the trim will cover any edge shrinkage of the new veneer and mechanically hold the veneer in place in addition to the adhesive.
    While not a project you would choose for fun, it is a doable in my opinion.
    The advantage of hide glue is, you can unveneer and redo in case of mistake.
    Since you can cover mistakes with the trim, permanent epoxy or other modern glue would work. Once veneered, you probably won't have to do it again for 30 years or so.
     
  10. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Some will suggest aluminum sufate to make hide glue waterproof, but it really will not be, just water resistant, which appears to be what you already have. It also tends to be brittle.
     
  11. UNCIVILIZED
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    UNCIVILIZED DIY Junkyard MadScientist

    After looking at the pictures, I can't help but wonder if 1.5mm or 3mm plywood might work in lieu of all of the hassle of veneers. Color wise, if you pre-finish some Meranti or Sapelle, such might work. And were it me, I'd cut the pieces to fit, seal them with epoxy, & then varnish or lacquer overtop of the epoxy. Though from a protecting the wood perspective, since you can get truly waterproof plywoods, you could just use an oil finish like Cetol if you wanted to.

    The nice part being that 3mm plywood's a breeze to scarf, as well as to work with. You can cut it to any shape(s) you like just using a few passes of a carpet/utility knife. And odds are 1.5mm is even easier. I've just never worked with it.

    Either way, you can "cheat", and tint a finish a little bit in order to get the new wood to match the old. But keep in mind that the new wood will darken a little with time. Not to mention with finishing So remember to allow for that when you're choosing how to finish it.

    On the using a shop vac for bagging, & not burning it out, I think it was designer/builder Kurt Hughes who recommended drilling several small (3mm to 6mm) holes into the part of the manifold between the connection to the part, & the connection to the shop vac's hose. And initially leaving these holes covered with tape. But once you've got enough pressure on the part, uncover a hole or two at a time, until there's still sufficent pressure on the part, but enough air flow going through your vac so as not to burn it out.
    If the part's bit enough to allow for it, slip a couple of vacume gauges into the skin of the bag in various places. Therefore you're sure that you've got good pressure after you open up some of your pre-made bleeder holes in your system.

    Were it me, I'd likely do the above, in addition to having a Y-valve in the vacume's manifold setup, & having a 2nd vac already hooked up & tested, on the 2ndary line. That way, if the first vac dies on you, mid cure, you could just turn the valve, & switch on the other vac. Thereby preserving the continuity of pressure on the part. Especially as shop vac's are cheap, & generally speaking, things which you go to the trouble to build via that method aren't.
    Heck, for what they cost, you could even have a small, 3rd vac on standby, to swap out for the primary were it to die. Thus giving you double redundancy.
     

  12. CheoyLee39
    Joined: May 2014
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    CheoyLee39 Junior Member

    HI :)

    'SamSam', The topside has been completely repainted and sealed, although in the past two days we have had rain and I have located one small drip that I will source and attend too. Being tropical North Queensland we do get semi regular light drizzle, but nothing regularly substantial in order to properly test water tightness. I am fairly confident that there should be nothing to create future issue though.

    'PAR', as mentioned the photos are of the aft cabin, I have another small area in the 'head', also on the hull at the portal, although it is only a few feet in length, apart from that, the other areas of the yacht are in fairly condition. I have noted that the portals in these areas are fitted at a slight angle allowing water to pool in the recess that is fairly deeply set, so I am assuming water has seeped through worn sealing, I will be addressing these issues before placing new veneer.

    'waikikin' I will look into the whole vacuum pressing thing, ultimately it may be necessary, however preferably wish to avoid it if possible. If cheap ready made units are available then I may well consider it, or if there is a "dummies guide" :confused: to building one then I may attempt it myself. But avoiding it is preferable.

    'Yobarnacle' I have wood trim tucked away in draws, hatches and the unused midships cabin (store room) :D all the areas are trimmed with hard wood, it has just been removed for new headlining, rewiring (LED) lighting has just been fitted throughout.

    'UNCIVILIZED' I can't help think that maybe you are correct in suggesting a very thin plywood, although these do come veneered also I do believe? So possibly I would not even need to worry about all the hassle of applying the veneer? I was slightly worried about adding thickness therefor creating problems. However it may not be such an issue.


    There do seem to be several workable options from all the advice, I suppose level of confidence and competence has a little to do with it. I am possibly capable of much of it, however I do just like to keep things simple and straight forward. Possibly my greatest concern is application once the material is cut etc. Would like not to have an issue with lifting, hence the whole vac bag deal. Would prefer not to go down that path if at all possible. :eek::rolleyes:

    Thanks for all the great replies :D:)
     
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