Looking for suitable Veneer panneling

Discussion in 'Materials' started by CheoyLee39, Jul 1, 2014.

  1. CheoyLee39
    Joined: May 2014
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    Location: Cairns

    CheoyLee39 Junior Member

    Looking for suitable Veneer panelling

    Good Afternoon

    I have been searching the internet for a suitable veneer paneling to replace some of my existing old and d-laminating internal veneer. I am having a pile of trouble finding what may suite.

    The existing veneer is essentially mostly paper thin, so I am reluctant to now either go overboard by removing solid structure, and also reluctant to apply a veneer that is going to add thickness.

    I am considering paper backed veneer and applying with a suitable glue? Or something of this nature. If anyone has any ideas RE: Veneer, and what may be the best way to go I would be most appreciative.

    Just a note, I am in Australia, so advice on Australian suppliers would be great. :)

    Regards :D
     
  2. Yobarnacle
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Location: Mexico, Florida

    Yobarnacle Senior Member

    Have you considered regluing existing veneer?
    There are numerous sites and web videos on repairing antique furniture, a lot of it veneered.
    If you need to thin down new veneer, inexpensive ($400 to$800) drum sanders are available. Maybe cheaper used.
    I used to have a 16inch wide Ryobi that the design allowed material to pass and be wider than the drum.
    Sanding in two passes a 32 inch wide board could be sanded.
    These are abrasive planers and accurate. You can load very fine sanding strips of sand paper on the drum and remove tiny amounts, or use more aggressive papers.
    The Ryobi had a conveyor belt table to feed material under the spinning drum.

    If you can salvage the current veneer, but some is damaged, you might consider using all the veneer from the forward stateroom (veeberths) to repair the salon.
    Redo the forward stateroom in formica or a different wood veneer.
    Goodluck.
     
  3. CheoyLee39
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    CheoyLee39 Junior Member

    Hi Yobarnacle

    Unfortunately the veneer is 30yo and simply not salvageable, it has mostly lifted off and is basically paper in poor condition. Having said that, if you are familiar with CheoyLee Offshore, it is extensively timbered through out, and essentially the aft main berth is effected. %60 needs redoing. I am not considering stripping one end to repair the other. I see only heart ache in attempting that, and is possibly not practical anyway.
    Locating an appropriate source of veneer is my best and most practical option, also finding something thin enough as mentioned, I do not wish to add excessive thickness.
    Color mach is not important as long as is similar.
     
  4. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member

    Australia has some beautiful woods. New Zealand too. I'm confident you will find a luxurious replacement.
     
  5. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    waikikin Senior Member

    CheoyLee,

    I got some teak veneer(quite a while back) from bridge street Padstow, I think it's called Marquetry Veneers
    6 Bridge St Padstow NSW 2211
    (02) 9533 4294

    Jeff.
     
  6. SukiSolo
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    Location: Hampshire UK

    SukiSolo Senior Member

    Less a problem of finding new veneer, than application? Trying to re-veneer panels in place could be a real problem. Maybe if the veneer is 0.8mm plus you will be OK. How you properly clamp it on flat panels in particular if still part of the boat structure, would certainly invite some creative thinking. Curved panels are actually easier if convex and more tricky if concave!.

    I have done a reasonable ammount of cold moulding and veneer work mainly in thin say 0.5 to 1.0mm veneers of different types. Making these layups is fine with pressing weights and vacuum systems when building a structure or panel. Trying to rework these panels after they have been put in place is going to be a lot harder. You may need to use an inflatable bag press to get decent results. Be very, very, careful with glue quantity too, far to easy to get bad bleed through to the surface requiring heavy sanding to remove.
     
  7. CheoyLee39
    Joined: May 2014
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    CheoyLee39 Junior Member

    Yes, finding it is possibly not the issue, although finding what would suit is a bit tricky.
    But what you have mentioned SukiSolo is actually the information I am looking for. I was considering a thin veneer, and applying with glue, applying it is something I was not sure about.
    I have on the internet seen Iron on veneer, this has an adhesive backing that is obviously ironed onto the existing backing, and yes, my backing is all in-situ, so using weights, clamps is impossible.
    Although the actual area needing veneer is not all that wide, iron on veneer is I think supplied up to 22 cm wide, sold in roles, most of the work needed is under 50cm width, so I was thinking using this Iron on method. Not sure if anyone has used this, but it does sound practical.
     
  8. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member

    If iron on is what you want, then making your own is best. Forget the modern glues. Find some hide glue the furniture makers used to veneer. It has to be melted to apply. Apply thin coats by brush to both back of veneer and the surface planning application to. Let them dry. Position the pre-glued veneer and iron in place. If it lifts in the future, re-iron it down. Hide glue while still liquid, cleans up with water. I believe it's actually made from hooves of cattle and horses rather than hides. A renewable resource anyway.
    it is not suitable for structural joints on boats, but excellent for veneer. If you make a mistake, injecting a tiny bit of alcohol under veneer with a hypodermic, after loosening with a hot iron, the veneer will come easily off. That's how furniture restorers do it.
    goodluck
     
  9. CheoyLee39
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    CheoyLee39 Junior Member

    Oh, that sounds a practical idea 'Yobarnacle', I will look into that 'hide glue'. That may allow me to buy a larger thin veneer and apply glue myself, as opposed to what appears the fairly narrow pre-glued roles available.
    This may not appeal to traditionalists and perfectionists, but it certainly would be far more practical than ripping the structure of the yacht out just to replace with a few new veneer panels.
    Thanks for the advice so far, makes it so much easier to make decisions.
     
  10. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    There should be veneer suppliers in your area, though it's not a huge market and fairly specialized, so often not well known. Veneers come three ways, naked, paper or cloth backed. I prefer naked with live edges, so I can make all the decisions about how they'll be applied, cut, etc. Paper backed is typical among furniture builders and is most common, while cloth backed is more suitable for flexible or highly shaped situations. Often the backing isn't WBP, so it delaminates with time and moisture exposure.

    Fixing veneers, unless a very small area, is a bit like herding teenage girls at a Justin Bieber concert. It's usually just simpler to either remove the old veneer (a power plane does this nicely) or glue down what's there and over glue another veneer layer.

    Most veneers are 1/10th of an inch or thinner. I have a source for thicker, which suits my needs, but for a decorative non-structural panel, the thin stuff is fine. A few different adhesives can work, but on a boat you really need WBP, so stick with known glues. I'd recommend epoxy. With other adhesives you might not have the gap filling properties of epoxy and you may also need considerable pressure, during the cure for good results. None of this is necessary with epoxy.

    If looking for iron on glue, try "Heat Lock" (no VOC's and water clean up) which can be brushed, rolled or sprayed. I'm not sure about it's waterproofness, but it's a favorite with furniture builders around here.

    I don't see an advantage to heat activated glue for you, except working on the vertical (my assumption) bulkhead. If using epoxy, I'd fill any divots on the surface first, then apply a neat coat of epoxy with a squeegee. I'd let this partly setup, until it's tacky, then take advantage of this tack when applying the veneers. The reason I don't like the iron on glues is they tend to have less then perfect edges, because the heat expands the veneers, during application, but they retract a bit when dry, leaving gaps. If book matching or other wise interested in clean butt joints, iron on is a tough product to work with in this regard, though great for small repairs.

    If it was me, I'd dry arrange all the veneers to fit, taping them together, once satisfied. This makes application reliable and you don't have to worry about seams. Then I'd do as suggested above and use epoxy. It might be necessary to arrange temporary bracing to push the assembled veneer package onto the bulkhead as a whole unit, but this is as simple as some plywood and 2x4 braces, wedges, etc.
     
  11. UNCIVILIZED
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    UNCIVILIZED DIY Junkyard MadScientist

    In a pinch, it is possible to custom make your own veneers. To include; using the wood of your choice, & machining it to the thickness of your liking.

    Use a Band Saw, & set up a stop/construct a jig, so that it will cut boards to slightly thicker than the finished panel thickness which you'd like. Then select the lumber type of your choice, preferably in wide width boards. And run them through the band saw to create your veneers.

    From there, you can take the sliced pieces, & lay them on a FLAT table, coated with mold release or plastic sheeting. And edge glue the panels together to whatever final width which you desire. Then sand, or plane the full sized panels to your final thickness.
    One additional option/step to this, would be to lay a piece of peel ply onto your gluing/mold table, followed by a thin layer of resinated cloth. This being done prior to laying down your boards to edge glue them together.
    Such a technique "should" give the final veneer panels much improved strength in terms of them staying in one piece, instead of having them fracture along the grain lines during handling.

    And from there, you can use some cardboard, or the doorskin & stick method in order to make bulkhead templates, so that you have patterns to use to cut your veneers to size.

    Now this last part's a guess, but if you've used a layer of fiberglass cloth & epoxy on the side of the veneer panels which will be glued to the bulkheads, it should allow you to vacume bag the panels into place without having the pressure of the vacume pull resin through the panels.
    Although that'd be something I'd test first, especially to see how bagging like this might cause resin flow around the edges of the panels. And I'd try it out prior to building all of my custom panels.

    However, barring this technique, it might be possible (and simpler) to affix the panels to your vertical surfaces with staples while the glue is drying, much like in Cold Molded Construction. Or, if you want veneer panels which are more pre-finished, you might try using a low viscosity resin. So that when you're edge gluing the pieces together on your mold table, the vacume draws the resin through the wood. Note: The latter's just a hypothesis, I can't say that I've ever tried such myself.

    And again, as I said, were it me, I'd test out all of the steps in this technique first. On a smaller scale, materials wise that is. In order to make sure it'll produce veneer panels to your liking, as well as to work out any bugs in the system, prior to going all out, in terms of doing things this way.

    If it helps, there's a short section in the book "Building Badger" by Pete Hill (of Pete & Annie Hill - "Voyaging on a Small Income"), where they describe making their own veneer panels for Badger's bulkheads out of Pitch Pine boards in a similar manner to the above.
    FYI, they built Badger from scratch themselves, on a shoestring budget. And sailed her for tens of thousands of miles.
     
  12. CheoyLee39
    Joined: May 2014
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    Location: Cairns

    CheoyLee39 Junior Member

    PAR, I was initially thinking paper backed veneer, however if naked veneer is better I will have a look for that from Australian suppliers. I am wondering if this veneer is available in wider form than just what I seem to find (20 cm approx) width rolls?

    And yes, all the work that I need to do is vertical. Would there not be an issue with veneer lifting before it cures if using epoxy? If not, I may prefer this method as opposed to iron on.

    Great advice, much appreciated.
     
  13. CheoyLee39
    Joined: May 2014
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    CheoyLee39 Junior Member

    'Uncivilized' possibly not all that practical for me to make my own veneer, 1) I live on-board and do not have any practical or convenient way to set up such an undertaking 2) and most importantly, my carpentry skills would not be capable of such involved processes, lol.

    I do however like the temporary stapling of veneer onto the backing idea. This would not be a problem as all the veneer has timber edging, and can once dry be placed over the staple holes, or even over staples.
     
  14. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    On the glue quantity thats dead right, last time I veneered I used epoxy & vac bagged it down, even with a very thin layer I got bleed through very fine splits(that you couldn't see) & epoxy being a "hard" glue needed to carefully scrape the veneer to remove the bleed through... live & learn, the process I used was just a clear builders film & some shade cloth & also some clear builders film masked to the veneer to stop the shade cloth from sticking- this actually spread & oozed the excess on the veneer- where the masking tape held this it didn't!- lesson maybe if I'd masked the whole it would have come up sweet at the start, also prolly could have used less vac too, main thing was the panels finished good & bultimillionair was happy & paid good too.
    You can "probably" carefully template, cut, mask & bag to your irregular shapes but learn the process.

    Jeff.
     

  15. UNCIVILIZED
    Joined: Jun 2014
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    UNCIVILIZED DIY Junkyard MadScientist

    ChoyLee,
    I'd suggest talking to Edensaw Woods as a start http://www.edensaw.com/MainSite/Store1/Store/CategoryHome/958
    Obviously they're not local, but may be able to help you out regardless. Especially as they ship stuff/orders a LOT. And in terms of sharing their knowledge in order to help a customer (or perspective one) get their project done [within the customer's constraints to boot].

    I lived about 10km from them up until a few years ago (a dangerous thing, given their wood & tools show room ;-) and they always had big smiles & were more than willing to help. Both with materials & tools, as well as in terms of steering you towards folks & solutions that were probable fixes for the corner which you'd painted yourself into.
    Not to mention that Port Townsend, Washington, where they're headquartered, is THE HQ-place for all things wooden boat on the US West Coast. Read LOTS of good craftsmen, history of boatbuilding, innovative free thinkers... many of whom build & or design boats.

    Back when I lived down by our other border (in San Diego, California), there's Frost Hardwoods, which might be another resource to try http://www.frosthardwood.com/ Albeit I haven't worked with them in about 15yrs, & didn't know squat about boats then, as compared to now. But as of the last time I called them they were still sharp, helpful, & friendly folks.

    The other resource options which come to mind, are to pick up a copy of "Wooden Boat" magazine, & peruse their classifieds in the back for resources + assistance. In addition to contacting some of the writers, editors, & such, that are always listed in the front of such magazines. Ditto with "Professional Boatbuilder" www.Proboat.com (also see their website & newsletter).

    As to your so called "carpentry shortcomings", a lot of boat repair shops, co-op's, & yards have skilled apprentices & junior journeymen who'd more than be up for the tasks which I described, in terms of making & installing veneers. And as they're junior, you likely wouldn't be paying $75 an hour, but you'd get a nice, professional job.
    That, in addition to having the bonus of their, & the shop's collective experiences & education, to help you sort out your problem(s).
    Also, it's likely that they have/have access to a thickness planer, so that you can have fairly wide pieces of custom veneer laminates (or lumber) precisely machined to your thickness specs in one shot.

    I've done plenty of living aboard too, so I hear you on that part as well... regarding the space thing. A tip I picked up somewhere along the way, is that some/most yards & shops will let you temporarily rent space for projects.
    From enough just to refinish some cabinetwork, to enough for building a whole boat. Which gives you an area to work out of the weather, with good lighting, that tolerates noise, & doesn't necessitate your putting all of your tools & supplies away at days end. And vice versa when you start.

    Laying up the kind of material which I described, could literally be done on a "benchtop" made out of a sheet of melamine/formica, temporarily fastened to a set of saw horses. Or for a surface to make larger pieces, a couple of sheets of (backed) formica with a piece of clear plastic packing tape covering the joint between the panels.

    I'm not trying to twist your arm into going the direction of my suggestions, just passing on some tips which I've picked up over time.

    Good luck with the project!
    Andy

    PS: They make plastic staples & fasteners now, on which you can sand the heads flush with the material you're using them on. So no need to pull'em, necessarily. Especially as they're immune to rust.
     
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