How did the old timers design hulls

[CarlosK2]

The job for a fishing boat or a pilot boat was to get out there and stay out there

And that's why they were designed in the first place to stay still in front of the waves: "heave-to"

When the function was to deliver letters and packages and some passengers (i.e. delivery van and occasional taxi) heading from merchans ships to leeward ports, then things like "Curlew" adapted to that function came about

 

[CarlosK2]

The Amazon Prime delivery van of the past (-1914) sailed to leeward ports

The first modern well-designed yachts (1930-) are an evolution of the delivery van

 

[CarlosK2]

The Classic Yacht

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The curious thing is that the modern yacht (1930-) as soon as it was born (spurred on by aeronautics) reached its peak by retaining its good past as a delivery van

And a lineage of yachts emerged that

1) sailed very well with the waves on the stern, without tripping over themselves

2) some sailed against the wind reasonably well, others very well, and some exceptionally well

3) and although they not "heave-to" like the traditional ones, they were yachts that could be left unattended while the crew took refuge in the cabin with the tiller fixed to one side and the waves on the stern (certainly the weak point of these classic yachts born after 1930 was the amount of water that found its way down)

 

[CarlosK2]

Who killed the classic yacht

Well, perhaps James Jesus Angleton along with, oh no, that's another topic, the classic yacht was killed by a conspiracy formed firstly by the agility in tacking, secondly the appearance of narrow ports where yachts could park (yachts in the past used to sleep with buoys) and thirdly the obsession with reducing the wet surface

 

[CarlosK2]

Look

Sail area-displacement ratio - Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sail_area-displacement_ratio

Why this ratio instead of a frank and honest ratio of "hoisted Sail surface to Tons"

Well, to hide the harsh reality: in the end, at the end of the 19th century, a 200-foot long ship hoisted 1 square meter per ton, and at the beginning a 20-foot sailboat hoisted 20 square meters per ton

We are trying to rationalize a world dominated by daydreams, fantasies and raising expectations

 

[CarlosK2]

Roots

The "yacht" was born in the middle and late 19th century in the British Empire and the smallest ones carried ...

8 (!) crew members:

4 seamen
1 cook
1 steward, accountant, and butler
1 mate
1 master

This root is deep and reaches to this day, although today one of the dominant dreams is the yacht for one alone, which comes into conflict with this root.

Another of the roots (1964-) is the French middle class: the small cruiser for dad, mom and two children. And the same: the root is still firm there.

That is to say: just as in the past the force of the root is powerful; but unlike in the past the force of the function, the task to be fulfilled, has been largely replaced by the desires and fantasies of the public who ultimately pays

The mega Motorboat with a gigantic 70-meter-high mast is the icing on this modern cake

 

[CarlosK2]

NN XX

3 are being built a month, it seems like they are being given away, and yet it costs more than 300K

It sells the modern fantasy that many of us share: a modern fast sailing boat for a single person.

The small problem is that this fantasy does not exist in large size because to reach the speed promised by this ultralight Hull, in addition to wind, with this size you need to hoist a gigantic spinnaker, and we are back to square one: 4 sailors, a cook, a steward ...

In other words: the public sees a video of a young athlete sailing a sailboat that hoists 40 square meters per Ton (in its basic configuration, Main + Jib) and pays 300K for a sailboat that hoists 14 square meters per Ton.

For 300K you are practically thrown off the sailboat and confined behind a wheel as a driver

No, no, I want to reach out my arm and touch the mast and the halyards

 

[CarlosK2]

Falmouth Quay Punt

At the end of their evolution, delivery vans ventured westward in search of merchant ships rather than waiting for them.

The function, the task, the terrain, uphill and downhill, was what forged the good roots of the modern small yacht.

 

[gonzo]

The modern yachts are mostly developed from pilot boats. They raced to the ships entering port or navigating difficult passages to deliver the pilots. They were light and overcanvassed.

 

[Howlandwoodworks]

Not what you might think of a boat hull built by old timers unless you live along the banks of the Mississippi or Missouri rivers.

The name Missouri meaning ‘people of the big canoes or people of the wooden canoe”. Anthropologists suggest Missouri should have been pronounced "May-sue-ray".
Some of the tribes that lived along the its banks were the Otoe-Missouria/Nyutachi, Osage, and many others Native American tribes lived along the Missouri River, including the Blackfoot, Salish Kootenai, Gros Ventre, Assiniboine, Shoshone, Cheyenne, Sioux, Nez Perce, and Apsaalooké (Crow)

AI Overview
Dugout canoes were a primary mode of transportation and hunting for Native Americans in North and South America before the arrival of Europeans. They were made from a single log of a large, straight hardwood tree, such as chestnut, pine, basswood, cottonwood, or soft maple. The process of making a dugout canoe was a huge undertaking that required careful planning and organization.

I Stumble across Churchill Clark and helped him adzes out a small section of his dugout canoe one sunny day along the bank of the Mighty Missouri river. He is the great great great great grandson of William Clark and has been traveling around the country to honor the legacy of William Clark since 2004.
Cooper’s Landing on Instagram: "Meet Churchill Clark who builds beautiful canoes from fallen trees. His latest dugout canoe is from a cottonwood and he has named it Harmony. He’s been on the Missouri river for two weeks in this one and intends to keep on going as it’s great therapy for him. He’s looking forward to catching up with old friends and making new friends during his stay. Come say Hi !" https://www.instagram.com/cooperslandingmo/p/C_6YEBxp6ZC/


Paint by; “Dad Howland” Plein Air painting from the spot where they would have camped. One of 12 in the series of Lewis and Clark journey taken from expeditions journals.
[Clark]
Sunday 14th Sept. 1806
Set out early and proceeded on very well. this being the part of the Missouri the Kanzas nation' resort to at this Season of the year for the purpose of robbing the perogues passing up to other nations above, we have every reason to expect to meet with them, and agreeably to their Common Custom of examining every thing in the perogues and takeing what they want out of them, it is probable they may wish to take those iberties with us, which we are deturmined not to allow of and for the Smallest insult we Shall fire on them. at 2 P. M. a little below the lower of the old Kanzas Village' we met three large boats bound to the Yanktons and Mahars the property of Mr. Lacroy, Mr. Aiten & Mr. Coutau all from St. Louis, those young men received us with great friendship and pressed on us Some whisky for our men, Bisquet, Pork and Onions, & * part of their Stores, we continued near 2 hours with those boats, makeing every enquirey into the state of our friends and Country &c. those men were much affraid of meeting with the Kanzas. we Saw 37 Deer on the* banks and in the river to Day 5 of which we killed* those deer were Mea-ger. we proceeded on to an Island near the middle of the river below our encampment of the ist of July 1804 and encamped haveing de-cended only 53 miles to day. our party received a dram and Sung Songs untill 11 oClock at night in the greatest harmoney.

There were many river boats that were Packard. From the elegant Steamboat like the Arabia to smaller wheelers that were family homes on the water running the smaller tributary like the Osage river.
Steamboats - Postal History - Who we are - About.usps.com https://about.usps.com/who/profile/history/steamboats.htm

The State Historical Society of Missouri Digitized Collections
CONTENTdm https://digital.shsmo.org/digital/search/collection/imc!transp/searchterm/steamboats!thorp/field/subjec!all/mode/exact!all/conn/and!all

Settlers said that the “Mighty Mo” was “too thick to drink and too thin to plow.”

 

[peter radclyffe]

i designed this the way alden might have, a carved model,

50 metre schooner Design no 97, | Boat Design Net

 

[Howlandwoodworks]

Peter,
Very slippery looking from all angles indeed.
So many great half molds.
Thank for sharing

 

[CT249]

Roots

The "yacht" was born in the middle and late 19th century in the British Empire and the smallest ones carried ...

8 (!) crew members:

4 seamen
1 cook
1 steward, accountant, and butler
1 mate
1 master

This root is deep and reaches to this day, although today one of the dominant dreams is the yacht for one alone, which comes into conflict with this root.

Another of the roots (1964-) is the French middle class: the small cruiser for dad, mom and two children. And the same: the root is still firm there.

That is to say: just as in the past the force of the root is powerful; but unlike in the past the force of the function, the task to be fulfilled, has been largely replaced by the desires and fantasies of the public who ultimately pays

The mega Motorboat with a gigantic 70-meter-high mast is the icing on this modern cake

No, yachting wasn't born in the middle and late 19th century. There were yacht clubs since the 1700s. One of the first was the Cumberland Fleet of the Thames, which came out of a race for "pleasure-sailing boats from 2 to 5 tons burden and constantly lying above London Bridge".

It is completely and utterly untrue to state that the smallest UK yachts of the 1800s carried eight crew members. Julia, a successful Thames racer/cruiser of the 1850s, was about 30ft LOA and 26'6" LWL. Ida, one of her competitors, was only 22'6" long. They were both beaten by Truant, an open boat of about 25' LOA. These did NOT carry eight crew with a cook!

By the 1880s there was a thriving class of 3 Tonners measuring from 24-28'+LWL in the UK. They did NOT carry eight crew or anything like it.

The smallest yachts later in the century were boats like the Half Raters, which were about 16' LWL and were only allowed to carry two persons. Two crew is NOT eight so why claim it is?

In fact even earlier there was a flurry of interest in singlehanded cruisers in both the UK and USA. One of these was Wulfruna, 18ft LOA. It's utterly incorrect to say that a singlehander takes eight crew.

Wulfruna

• CT249
• Dec 10, 2024

 

[CT249]

Look

Sail area-displacement ratio - Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sail_area-displacement_ratio

Why this ratio instead of a frank and honest ratio of "hoisted Sail surface to Tons"

Huh? SA/D just uses different units. It's as frank and honest as sail to tons.

 

[CT249]

The boats above show how old timers designed hulls. By the 1880s, the top designers were normally designing by using plans rather than models. They calculated the ratios and measurements in the normal naval architecture way - for example Dixon Kemp's 1881 plans for a three tonner include published measurements for area of waterplane, wetted surface, SA/WS ratio, coefficient of displacement, centre of buoyancy both longitudinally and vertically, metacentric height, etc. Obviously there were still "rule of thumb" designers as well.

Development in racing yachts was done in much the same way as in the 20th century - by watching the opposition and seeing how their different design features affected the performance. The big difference in racing boats was arguably that they had very simple measurement rules and a touching faith that if they got the simple rules right, then something close to an ideal yacht would follow. The result of these simple rules was that progress (in terms of getting faster boats) tended to be quick and to move in one direction; for example under the Tonnage rules, which penalised beam, British yachts tended to get skinnier and skinnier; they didn't move in one direction and then the other in response to other technological breakthroughs as occurs in more recent times.

However the importance of the rules on design is often over-stated. For example although it's often said that long overhangs were created by rules, researching the times shows clearly that it was NOT the case. Bow overhangs grew when lighter and beamier boats came in because when you create a wineglass-shaped mid section and extend those lines forward, it naturally creates an overhang. And designers realised that the overhang gave better volume distribution forward. And it was at least as artificial to draw a vertical bow an then stick a vast bowsprit out the front as it was to put up an overhanging bow. This is clearly noted in writing by Watson, Herreshoff, Linton Hope etc. Stern overhangs were there partly because it gave people somewhere to stand when reefing or folding the mains on those long overhanging booms.

Designers watched each other closely and there was a lot more learning from each other than some may think. For example it's claimed that Herreshoff invented the fin keel, but he clearly didn't. They were in use before he drew one, as in the unsuccesful "Evolution" and the successful 2 1/2 Raters of Payne. Herreshoff's fin keelers were just one step in a very fast period of development, and other designers took the concept further very quickly.

Similarly, while many sources say that Gloriana introduced the overhanging bow and straight profile forward, the latter was a long-term trend (I think it was Crane or Crowninshield who said Herreshoff was inspired by the Fife cutter Minerva's cutaway forefoot) and Watson came out with a similar "spoon bow" at almost the same time with Dora, which was launched only weeks after Gloriana and clearly therefore was not a copy - indeed Dora's bow was closer to the shape then largely adopted.

So everyone was watching and learning from everyone else, even the greats. Which makes one wonder - if Herreshoff and Watson respected other designers and learned from them, why do so many idiots these days abuse designers instead of learning from them?