How did the old timers design hulls

[gonzo]

Francis was often a fearful snob despite the fact that even in middle age he was often relying on his father's money.

I completely agree. However, the quote about building his designs with frozen snot, comes for the articles he wrote for the magazine The Rudder.

 

[Cory]

I'm going to start researching more about how the old time marine architects designed hulls?

Detailed question, I assume they used wood to make small scale hulls. Then water tested them???

Watching close how to the different shapes worked, then blew up the small scale Models.

Could be 100% wrong, haha

Who understands and has studied the old ways of hull design?

There are still people that operate like the old timers
You have to start off with the job title list of what you're trying to do
I would just start making lists of what you want the boat to do and what you want it to carry to where you have a description developing.

 

[gonzo]

This is a book worth reading for your research: architectura navalis mercatoria.
You need to also understand that many of the traditional designs were never designed on paper or models. I worked with all timers that used traditional ways. The method was to first lay the keel, then add the bowstem and transom. A middle frame was then attached and "spreader frames" more less on the quarters. All this was by eyeball. They got adjusted, trimmed, etc. until they looked good. Battens get layed from bow to stern and the rest of the frames are added.
The Viking method was different. They lay the keel and stems. The planks are added. starting at the garboard. The hull takes shape and can be adjusted by trimming, twisting and pushing the planks. There are sticks from above and below to keep the shape if necessary. The frames are then carved and installed.

 

[Cory]

Old timers based their designs on previous proven one. The improvements were usually done in small increments. The succesful designs and builds were made by people that took the time and effort to learn from the past; respectfully.

I agree with knowing what exists before any materials are used.

I wish people used such caution

 

[Howlandwoodworks]

They had their blind brother carve the hulls for them....(truth is stranger than fiction).

Starting with a carved 1/2 hull model as a design prototype would cut out many draftsman, naval architecture and engineering. The result would be that the finished yachts innovations would be brought to the race course faster than his competitors at less cost.

An old timer from the late 1700's might have a set of Copenhagen Ship Curves, Dixon Kemp curves as well as french curves with the knowledge of what they were and how to use them.
I once heard a master sculptor say that beginner are inspired by but a master just steals and makes it better.

 

[wet feet]

An old timer from the late 1700's might have a set of Copenhagen Ship Curves, Dixon Kemp curves as well as french curves with the knowledge of what they were and how to use them.
I once heard a master sculptor say that beginner are inspired by but a master just steals and makes it better.

The old timer in question would be unlikely to have a set of Dixon Kemp curves as he wasn't born until 1839.

Dixon Kemp - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixon_Kemp

 

[Howlandwoodworks]

wet feet,
Thanks for keeping the record straight.
An old timer from not the late 1700's but the late 1800's might have a set of Copenhagen Ship Curves, Dixon Kemp curves as well as french curves with the knowledge of what they were and how to use them.

A bad spot on the bottom right of the of the Copenhagen Ship Curves, it could be my set. The Dixon Kemp curve would be better.

 

[wet feet]

Which does I suppose lead us to ask where we might obtain a set of Dixon Kemp curves or the patterns from which to make them?There used to be three businesses that sold equipment for drafting within twenty miles of me and now there is one that has diversified into general office supplies.The universal switch to CAD has just removed the market for old style hardware and other than estate sales or business closures,I wouldn't know where to look.The other aspect is that by the time one has bought every conceivable family of curves the outlay would have covered perhaps a seat of Rhino and the advantages that the modern professionals make use of.

As for keeping the record straight,I suppose this site will one day become the main source of design information-if it isn't already.

 

[Howlandwoodworks]

How did the old timers design hulls? From their world and the ashes from the past.
This is a very old story and it is up to the next generations to find the beauty in their trade from their world and the past. (information)
While information itself cannot directly violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics, it can allowing for more efficient energy usage within a system.

 

[Tops]

Which does I suppose lead us to ask where we might obtain a set of Dixon Kemp curves or the patterns from which to make them?

There is a link in post #11 here: https://forum.woodenboat.com/forum/tools-materials-techniques-products/204586- scroll through the excerpt until Figure 1 is found. There is some size information there and in the WBF thread.

To make the patterns, I would extract the raster, create an initial vector file, clean up the vector file, and output to the desired format (paper print or data file). Inkscape works for the initial raster to vector (trace bitmap, centerline option) and could probably be used to create a final file, but I would normally switch to something I am more familiar with for the final edits and output.

 

[Howlandwoodworks]

A side note in reference to the WoodenBoats forum thread above.
Jay Greer passing is a great loss. One of the super star on WoodenBoats publications, forum, etc. . His knowledge was extensive in wooden boats, it's history and a fellow wood carver just to name a few of his expertise in all things boating and he shared his knowledge freely.
For every drop of rationality in society is precious.
-MaxWeber
He and Ann owned the Red Witch a H-28 design by L. Francis Herreshoff a Long keel w/trans hung rudder - Masthead Ketch.
Also Bright Star another H28 that he and his son were rebuilding in Port Townsend.
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/westminster-ca/jay-greer-11623158

May we all raise our glass of spirts high as if to touch thous that have gone before us.
Cheers
John

 

[Howlandwoodworks]

Most trades were handed down from father to son. If you showed an aptitude in the field you might have gotten the chance at an apprenticeship. Then there are thous who just went for it. Therein lies the Dilemma you may only have enough knowledge/information to be consider dangerous and it might seem that the instructor is withhold information about specific mental or physical tools that you just don't have yet or the Dunning-Druger effect - unskilled and unaware but you think you are.
Or a scenario where the designer or instructor is concerned about protecting their own competitive advantage and would with hold some information. Then they were confronted with ethical dilemma or moral choice to rubare il commercio - steal the trade. Today we have Patent Laws that dictate our behavior. Congress on 4/19/1790 pass the first Patten Law.
Naval Architecture is way harder than I ever imagined. I know am unskilled and unaware but the dream is way to deep inside of me to stand back away from the edge of the rabbit hole.

AI Overview
W. Starling Burgess
An American yacht designer who was mentored by his father's Edward Burgess many of his colleagues including Nathanael Greene Herreshoff. However, Herreshoff ended their relationship when Burgess told him he wanted to become a yacht designer himself.
Burgess was inducted into the America's Cup Hall of Fame in 1994.
Burgess assisted Buckminster Fuller with the design of Dymaxion Car
Dymaxion car - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_car

"Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made, for somewhere deep in their oaken hearts the soul of a song is laid." —Robert N. Rose

 

[wet feet]

Maybe he should have stuck to boats and Buckminster Fuller should have left the field for car guys! The 50 Worst Cars of All Time - TIME https://content.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1657686_1657677,00.html

We drive Buckminster Fuller's terrifying Dymaxion car (so you don't have to) https://www.autoweek.com/car-life/classic-cars/a1869416/buckminster-fullers-dymaxion-car-probably-scariest-thing-weve-ever-driven/

 

[Howlandwoodworks]

Inversions of mental model: A rift on Carl Gustav Jacob idea of invert.
Questions that an old timers might ask them selves. What things do I want to avoid with my hulls design?
They do so in the spirit of the anonymous man who said:
“All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I'll never go there."
"Avoiding stupidity is easier than seeking brilliance" -- Charlie Munger.
A Darwinian method of design is a Bubble Up methodology of design*. Slow to change with many dead ends.
“You can't do much carpentry with your bare hands and you can't do much thinking with your bare brain."
-- Bo Dahlbom.

As in a Naval Architects methodology is to use empirical data, peer review with Assumptions providing what has to be true.
This is a Trickle Down method of design* a hierarchy system of checks and balances.
"Thoughts without content are empty, Intuitions without concepts are blind." Kant

* I am paraphrasing concepts from Daniel Dennett's book “Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking”

 

[CarlosK2]

"they used wood to make small scale hulls. Then water tested them???"

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This is a modern idea based on (a) warships (b) merchant ships and fuel consumption and (c) sailing races

Design in the past (say in the 19th century) was based on one hand on tradition, which has enormous weight, and on the other hand on variations or better the fixings selected by function

for example as John Illingworth says in "Further Offshore", page 142, in the chapter dedicated to Hull Design:

"The work boats were originally designed in many cases as much to heave-to as to sail"