Future Sportfisherman Looks like the Past?

[TollyWally]

Plankton,
Excellent post, excellent. I've done a bit of fishing back in the day; I can tell you have a real hands on viewpoint. Fishing boats have always eventually evolved to fit the economic conditions. The ones that don’t can’t keep up the necessary maintenance and after an ugly slow motion death spiral are either sold into different trades or lay rotting and abandoned at the head of a bay somewhere.

Curious men who study the habits of fish will figure out a way to catch them regardless of the equipment or technology as long as there are fish to catch.

I look forward to reading more from you on this and other threads drawing upon your time in the fisheries.

 

[brian eiland]

Tri-hull Sportfisher

...However, it's my gut instinct that a motor-sailing cat will not be the market leader in a world dominated by cash and oil. It's a lovely thought, and I'd be one to sign up for the campaign, but it won't happen. As others here have said, those with the money to buy the right boats and the fuel for them do not have the time or the inclination to wander the oceans, sipping cocktails as the shrouds creak. The Tara Vana is a boat designed to do that, and she does it in surroundings conducive to that atmosphere, with decidedly Pacific panache. I can't see it happening in the Mid Atlantic tournament out of Cape May (for example) with 200 - 300 boats leaving port at the same time, running 60 miles to the edge, and then running home again to weigh-in. Alas. It might happen in some parts of the world where wind is common and fish are close - the Cape Verdes, for example, or the Caribbean Islands or the Bahamas, and there may well be some people who will design and use a boat for the expedition fishing scene. But........

Much more common I think will be the ascendance of catamarans in general. As designs have improved and as the blinkered sportfishing world learns yearly, there are many great variations of cat design out there, and as oil prices soar I think we will see a real boom in the long thin displacement hulls so beloved by Crowther and Tennant, as are commonly seen down in the Pacific. As people start to realize the advantages these hulls give a catamaran then I think the trend for the wide-bodied planing and semi-planing hulls so common today in the US catamaran market will slow. This is the area I think we will see most improvements in, to the stage where people will buy boats that can give a distinct edge in economy while still offering competitive mid-20 knot cruise speeds. A vessel that offers all of the regular advantages of a catamaran such as stability, space and sea-worthiness and also combines that with a cruising range in excess of 600 miles at a decent speed and a fortnightly fuel fill at her fishing destination will become king...

Sure wouldn't offer the maneuverability that a twin engined cat would, but I could well imagine a fishing chair on the back deck of this tri-hull form...maybe a little smaller version of this vessel.
New Age Trawler/Motor sailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20319

And how about making it a dive/snorkeling/leisure platform as well:

 

[plankton]

Brian,

Propane heater - I stand corrected ! Never seen a Dickerson propane heater, so that's a new one. Wonder how much gas you'd need for a long winter cruise up to Alaska and back !

Your multi-hulls are extremely interesting and i think your designs are pretty much spot on. I also agree that a trimaran, though not as maneuverable as a twin-engined cat, could well do the job. Inherently, there is much to be said for three hulls as against two. However, might I suggest that large billfish (in particular) are more commonly (and preferably) handled alongside a vessel, not athwartships across the transom. Two overriding concerns by a diligent crew who release their fish are (1) to keep the fish swimming into a flow of water thus ensuring an oxygenated supply of water, and (2) to keep the fish out of the props. When a large billfish is on the leader it can characteristically surge forwards, often in sympathy with the pull of leader. If at the back of the boat, this will often lead a fish into the props, particularly if the fish is aqua-planing with pectoral fins rigidly outstretched. Might I respectfully suggest a retractable steel-rung platform, as used on board tuna pole-boats, that can be lowered outboard alongside the stern sections of the hull in the closing stages of a battle with a fish ? It could do double duty as a boarding/dive platform and tender-berth at anchor.

Alternatively, below is a different take on a multi-hulled sportfisherman from New Zealand. This is a wave-piercer, so the hull is different, but you'll get an idea of how a different transom arrangement can be effective. This charter vessel is highly successful and has set several world records in both fishing and performance terms. It regularly fishes banks to the NW of New Zealand, some 450 miles offshore.

More info here : http://www.charterworld.com/index.html?sub=yacht-charter&charter=motor-yacht-ultimate-lady-372

Tollywally - thank you for your kind words. I think you'll find that this kind of vessel might, with modifications, be the best fuel-efficient fish-boat of the future ! It'll be interesting to see what the finished vessel looks like and how she performs l

 

[plankton]

Brian,

I just saw your mention of a kite-assisted boat too. I have some friends in Hawaii who have been playing with them, I understand that when they solve the problem of keeping the kite at zenith for no pull when playing fish that they will then have a pretty serious contender for the coasts with wind. I'm not sure they'll work that well in the lee at Kona though !

I like kites. I've played with a kite buggy and have a PowaKite I regularly get to pull the kids along the beach. I can see the potential of it as a fishing-boat "puller" and love what the German outfit are doing with cargo ships. In the right hands I can see a large kite with controllable output eventually taking the water speed record too with a boarder below.

For fishing boats, kites also offer a variety of solutions to presenting baits - in the traditional suspension methods of the Floridian sail-fish experts, through the offshore coastal long-line users of New Zealanders and Polynesians, to the cutting edge developments of using them on the troll by some tuna-boats worldwide, but especially off the east coast if USA. There is no finer way to catch a boat-shy tuna than to troll a bait over its head to windward of a boat. A lot of giant bluefin are caught off the NE USA by people using kites now, suspending live bluefish beneath them as baits. It's a very interesting form of fishing - and it shouldn't be a hard sell selling the wind-power theory to fishermen who use kites already !

 

[brian eiland]

Relaxing Kite Restraint...De-power

Brian,
I just saw your mention of a kite-assisted boat too. I have some friends in Hawaii who have been playing with them, I understand that when they solve the problem of keeping the kite at zenith for no pull when playing fish that they will then have a pretty serious contender for the coasts with wind. I'm not sure they'll work that well in the lee at Kona though !

Here are some guys in Hawaii playing with kite power:
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/52647-post9.html

De-powering seems to have something to do with relaxing the restraints on the kite and letting it seek a neutrality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSWfi5AMT2E&amp

For fishing boats, kites also offer a variety of solutions to presenting baits - in the traditional suspension methods of the Floridian sail-fish experts, through the offshore coastal long-line users of New Zealanders and Polynesians, to the cutting edge developments of using them on the troll by some tuna-boats worldwide, but especially off the east coast if USA. There is no finer way to catch a boat-shy tuna than to troll a bait over its head to windward of a boat. A lot of giant bluefin are caught off the NE USA by people using kites now, suspending live bluefish beneath them as baits. It's a very interesting form of fishing - and it shouldn't be a hard sell selling the wind-power theory to fishermen who use kites already !

Very interesting

 

[brian eiland]

Fishing Cockpit, etc

.. However, might I suggest that large billfish (in particular) are more commonly (and preferably) handled alongside a vessel, not athwartships across the transom. Two overriding concerns by a diligent crew who release their fish are (1) to keep the fish swimming into a flow of water thus ensuring an oxygenated supply of water, and (2) to keep the fish out of the props. When a large billfish is on the leader it can characteristically surge forwards, often in sympathy with the pull of leader. If at the back of the boat, this will often lead a fish into the props, particularly if the fish is aqua-planing with pectoral fins rigidly outstretched.

Planton,
I welcome all of your input as I am certainly not a big game fishing guy.

I just observed many sportfishing boats seemingly trying to keep their transoms facing the direction of pull from the single line of the guy fishing in the chair (as opposed to multiple fishing party boats), so that should the fish dart from one side to the other, he didn't end up to far out to the side/front of the vessel, nor underneath it. The vessel needed that maneuverability to back down or go forward quickly, plus turn its transom towards the fish ??

The mate needed to be able to move quickly from one side of the vessel across to the other, either behind the fishing chair, or sometimes in front of it going under the taut line. That's the reason I tried to provide for an athwartships deck that was basically all one single level, in-line with the two transoms decks when it was 'lowered'. The mate then needed only to 'slide over' the 'partition' formed by the inner hull sides at either end of the central deck section....as close as I could come to a deck space similar to what he might be accustomed to on a conventional sportfishing boat. And then segments of railing that could provide for knee bracing during the fight or gaffing

Alternatively, below is a different take on a multi-hulled sportfisherman from New Zealand. This is a wave-piercer, so the hull is different, but you'll get an idea of how a different transom arrangement can be effective. This charter vessel is highly successful and has set several world records in both fishing and performance terms. It regularly fishes banks to the NW of New Zealand, some 450 miles offshore.

I was slightly familiar with this design, and it's more along the same idea I first offered with the smaller 'aft deck pod' fishing area:
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/Layout_and_Profile_Accommodations_Drawing.php

But I don't think that NZ design has a fishing deck down near the water, in fact quite high up? So the only area that the mate might recognize as familiar to his old fishing cockpit would be the two transom areas that involve a bit of obstacle running to get between the two, and a limited area in each to reach over and gaff the fish??

...just my observations??

BTW, I've had an occasion to speak and met briefly with Peter Wright, a very well known name in offshore sportfishing, who likes my idea of the fishing catamaran, and indicated a desire to help with the final cockpit layout once a fishing guy was 'hooked' on the project

 

[brian eiland]

Maine Cat 47

...We're almost halfway there already. If Dick Vermeulen's 47 foot craft up in Buzzards Bay (Maine) turns out the way the numbers are crunching, then we may have the first of a new breed coming down the line. Numbers ? How about 22,800 lbs of boat floating along at 21 knots for a range of 685 miles ? Or a displacement range of over 4000 miles at 8 knots ? Top speed of 24.5 knots for over 500 miles ?

What's more remarkable is that this vessel is powered with just a pair of 160hp common-rail diesels and only has a fuel capacity of 400 gallons. If I was still a charter operator I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Just think, in some places where the edge is just a mile from port, you'd fill up once a month !

That is a sweet looking vessel, and he builds a really nice product. Modify the stern and you could end up with a real nice sportfishing vessel.

 

[the1much]

which boat???,,,man you guys confuse me,,hehe



:EDIT: ,,,,what ta hell is he doing with a nice boat in maine waters?,,

 

[brian eiland]

Buzzards Bay 33, Chris White design

I really like this vessel too....the MD Buzzards Bay 33.

I call it the multihull version of the infamous Bertram 31
http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/power/bertram31.asp

Here are some photos I saved:

 

[plankton]

Hi Brian,

I nearly was there for the first Buzzards' Bay launch back in 2004 or so. I like the vessel, but disliked the outboards (not good for billfish) and stern-drives (not my preferred method of propulsion from a mechanical point of view), so if you prefer straight shaft propulsion there is very little to touch the Maine Cat for efficiency in the USA. The PDQ's come close but you'd have to really butcher the stern of the boat to turn them into charter vessels. The 34 (or 35 or 32 depending on where you have seen the vessel!) is also not what I would call a true open-ocean vessel, according to some whom have ridden on it. Yes, more than capable of holding its own in a blow but not first choice for a full-time charter boat. Which is a shame, since I would think they would be very popular if PDQ could fashion a commercial craft on the hull shape.

There are a few UK craft that are now also coming into line with these developments, but at this stage they all require large engines due to hull volume. The only real comparisons come from Peter Brady's Scimitar designs in OZ (also Voyager) and the various cats from NZ, some from the drawing board of Noah who frequents this board. I got halfway along to designing a cat with him funnily enough, but I left NZ and that particular project has died. Oh, and there's the Lagoon 43 from France of course. Not sure about the build quality but it has all the other credentials in spades to make it a blue-water charter boat.

I'll come back later with some thoughts on your other posts, have to run to the PO.

PS: Incidentally, if you're reading this Noah, do send me a PM. I lost a computer earlier this year and with it your contact details !

 

[the1much]

wow,,,looks nice !,,,im surprised theres no bullet holes in it,,,,we usually use those kind of boats fer target practice in maine,,hehe
i bet them multi's ride nice,,,,but again,,,theres all that wasted room

 

[brian eiland]

Chain or Belt Drive

How about this? I've mentioned it before. Turn the engine around and get the props ou of the very stern...maybe even out to the inner side to reduce draft...maybe a forward facing model

Chain Drive...discontinued
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/15453-post14.html

Pulling Prop Belt Drive
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/7567-post9.html
About three years ago I had mentioned my interest in such a configuration to the Volvo rep at the Ft Lauderdale show. He said I should come visit them in Norfork. I never did take the time to follow up on that invitation. I suspect they have been working on this for some considerable time.

I had previously suggested this idea for both single and/or dual props, but utilizing a kevlar belt drive component rather than 90 degree shafts:
From my website,"Other than direct straight-shaft drive of propellers, most marine drives today involve some sort of 90 degree arrangement, ie.sail drives, stern outdrives, outboards, etc. The 90 degree gear set (and there are usually two sets) is the potential weak link in the system. All the power is being transferred over a very physical small contact area between two bevel gears. This contact patch can be nothing more than a thin line on the opposing two teeth! Special hardened gears and maintaining close-fit tolerances permit the horsepowers of today. But when it comes to diesel engines, the situation gets worst. The diesel is by its nature a much more torque'y beast. Gears to handle an even modest horsepower diesel are extra hard pressed. Teeth can break or get worn so quickly as to loose all tolerance."

Volvo is talking some fairly big diesel power here. I can only think that the smaller dia props (dual configuration) are a factor in making it work, but I still have trouble believing it. I wish them the best of luck in a successful product.


New Drive System, IPS from Volvo Penta
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/technical-discussion/2232-new-drive-system-volvo-penta.html#post15453

Chain Drive Duo Prop
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/Tennant_Hull_V_ChainDrive.php

 

[brian eiland]

Good Observations Lost in Old Threads

Hi folks,

First time post here and hope i don't put my foot in it too much - or upset too many people, but I've read all the posts here and feel the need to add some more fuel to the fire.

I've been a fisherman most of my life, both commercial and in the charter industry, and have run boats in almost all the oceans of the world. As a person who has spent many hundreds of thousands of dollars on fuel, believe me when I say it hurts to pay the fuel bill every year like some of us do. Worse still, we do so in the knowledge that we are doing the "wrong" thing too.

I became enamoured with Richard Postma's Tara Vana many years ago and always hankered to go and fish it. .......

That was just a small portion of the excellent & knowledgeable posting #38 above. I had forgotten about it until I happened across it again today. My thought was this belongs over on this other discussion I started on this 'Gamefihing Under Sail' subject. But when I went to place a copy over there I discovered I already had done so.

So Plankton, where did you disappear to?? This tread died after I posted the belt/chain drive stuff?

I'm also surprised no one has responded to the Plankton posting over on this other subject thread??
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/125845-post56.html
Perhaps there is less 'cross-pollination' amoung the boating forums?

 

[plankton]

I'm still here, Brian ! How is life treating you ? I see you reference a thread over on MarlinNut, so I guess you can say I do cross-pollinate !

 

[DoubleA727]

let me disclaim myself first - i am no NA, salty old fisherman, etc... im just a guy who loves boats, fishing, and anything to do with the water. any "designs" i have are all conceptual. that being said:

this is an interesting thread... i am currently trying to start up a boat company with the flagship being a 45' catamaran sportfisher. capable of high speed but also, if smaller engines used, can be very fuel efficient.

this thread has actually made me quite happy with myself, because most of the issues brought up i had thought of and worked through.

one of the best cat designs ive seen, its not a true cat i guess, its actually sort of a tri hull, very odd, but design wise its the closest ive seen to what i want to do. just think of a mix of this and Maine Cat

a picture was shown above, but this is the man. page for her
LOMOcean Ultimate Lady

obviously i think this is where tournament fishing is heading (more efficient hulls). my entire marketing plan is to enter into shotgun start bill tournaments, let everyone else start and then blow by them on their way to the fishing grounds. conversely, if trying to sell to a charter service, i can run the same speed they are running, and at the end of the day show them how much money they would have spent on gas in my boat v. theirs.

the single largest hurdle i see in actually selling my boat(or any catamaran) to someone who owns a viking, Hat, etc... is that the word "catamaran." it evokes a gag reflex in most of those guys. therefore i believe the only real way to sell them is to outperform (in either speed or fuel effeciency) their slow mono hull sportfishers by so much, that they HAVE to admit the benefits of the catamaran. and if you can get some of the gung-ho tournament guys to buy one, then you're golden.

this was a great read - thanks to all who chimed in!