Fuel economy discussion...more important now than ever!?

Canivour
The earlier post on the Cadence was my way of attacking the premise that we can continue to do what we are now doing but just get a little more efficient.

I believe the changes required are much greater and becoming more urgent. Simply put I do not see that 6.5bn people can impose the same load on resources as the population of North America and other parts of the world like Australia. Do the numbers and you will see that the balance point requires a huge adjustment by populations in developed countries.

I have a firm belief that non-commercial consumption of hydrocarbon fuels will be increasingly frowned on and regarded as antisocial. A bit like smoking indoors was 20 years ago. Even if the owners of those huge motor launches you see populating the marinas can afford to use them they are pushing up fuel prices and hurting everyone else. Ultimately it is shifting wealth from oil poor to oil rich countries.

So radical thinking is needed. I started my change about 6 years ago. I now get more pleasure on the water in a pedal boat than in any power boat or sailing boat I have owned or used. I use one of my boats most weekends. My wife tried a pedal boat for the first time when we were in Seattle using a Nauticraft Escapade and had a great time in it. The Escapade carries two in comfort and mooches along at 3kts with little effort and almost 5kts at an energetic level.

So I see high power motor driven boats as the modern dinosaur. The world simply cannot stand 6.5bn people zooming around in these fuel hungry craft for pleasure. It is not something that we should aspire to or encourage.

So rather than mpg you need to be thinking in terms of calories per nm. There are plenty of those to spare in North America - and Australia. Might also reduce medical costs as side benefit.

Rick W.

 

Should add that all the things you raise about efficiency can be readily calculated with reasonable precision. So no need to get a range of input from other users. Just do the numbers yourself. What Ken offered were all sound options to reduce consumption.

When you are using calories per nm you get a very good feel for what each element is costing. After 6 years I have found a wide range of available analysis tools and I design to the last watt. The tools to do the analysis are readily available and I can lead you through them if you are interested.

This gives some idea of how the lost watts can be chased down with a little bit of ingenuity:
http://www.adventuresofgreg.com/HPB/2008/06/little-aussie-magic.html

As an aside it is not unusual to see props on power boats operating around 60% efficiency. I aim for the high eighties so just working on the prop design can give big gains.


Rick W.

 

The amount of fuel used for pleasure boating is so miniscule that it makes no difference whatsoever on world oil prices. The biggest culprit is the private automobile, general transportation (trucks) and manufacturing. Kind of like your car and little boat you have there.
Let the market determine the direction of our energy use and it will take care of itself. If you can't afford to buy large quantities of fuel, then don't. But don't slight those that can by making them sound wicked with false statements.

 

Coming Soon To A Neighborhood Near You

Ahhh, yes. The classic haggle between the responsible futurist and the all-out freemarket advocate. The very poignant argument of the new millenium in a nutshell.

Do we recognize the global effect of a cost escalating and also, dwindling resource, or do we keep on-keeping on in the western world, smiling while we give the finger to emerging economies?

Pull up a comfy chair, blast open a bag of popcorn and get your favorite beverage.

For the record, I do have a take on this, but I'll be content, for now, simply taking it all in. So, buckle-up, folks, the ride could get a bit bumpy and we are still a considerable distance from our eventual destination.

 

Steve
You are assuming that pleasure boating and automobiles are disconnected. It is not practical to tow the 24ft power cruiser with a Toyota Matrix. Often the reason for the big SUV is the occasional need to get the 2 tonne boat to water or the accommodation trailer to a park.

Leaders need to anticipate the market. This is, after all, the boatdesign forum and design is at the front end of anything new.

I am voicing an opinion on what I see as inevitable. High powered pleasure boats are rapidly becoming obsolete. Their slice of fuel consumption may be miniscule but they are highly visible and extremely wasteful of a precious resource.

I am proposing pedal powered boats as a pleasurable alternative that has less impact on resources and is more invigorating than tearing across the water in a high powered boat.

I have experienced the thrill of operating high powered boats, the power of wind filling sails and the sustained acceleration of modern jet liners. None of these match the simple pleasure of control you have in a good pedal boat once you achieve a reasonable level of fitness. It is a more embracing experience.

It is not a matter of individuals being able to afford fuel it is a question that societies will need to address. I have experienced how governments have responded to water shortage in Australia. Water is more fundamental to life than fuel. As fuel becomes more scarce and more expensive I can see its use becoming highly regulated. You simply will not be able to use it for non-commercial purposes. Policing it will be interesting but big brother will find a way. Maybe a quota system. Hydrocarbons are so entwined in our daily living that governments will be pressured to intervene - it is already happening. Governments cannot take the risk with free market forces reacting in time to prevent industry collapses.

The world economy is slowing down because it is running out of fuel. Wasteful users will need to make the biggest changes.

Rick W.

 

Chris
I am disappointed you have not given a view. I have said enough in my last post on the conservation topic so not adding any more "fuel". You might not see much activity.

If Canivour wants detail suggestions on reducing fuel usage I am happy to help.

There are too many threads already covering the fuel conservation issue.

Rick W

 

Probably not, Rick. So, here goes...

I've never really had a big blasting internal combustion engine of any kind, unless you want to call my 400 Husqvarna desert machine, a big blaster. Even when I roadraced motorcycles, I rode a 350 Yamaha which was a very suitable giant killer in its time. So, I haven't bought into the big engine madness as a method for personal salvation.

I see the dwindling supplies of petroleum, the huge economic buying pressure of emerging nations and the long overdue, Homer Simpson DOH! moment for the American consumer, as a spiraling Nexus of realization for all those on this planet who wish to continue engaging internal combustion engines as if there is no tomorrow in sight. Except I have a bit of a transitional phase to this story so that some semblance of order can take place, avoiding out and out chaos... if we are lucky.

Big engine guys... the handwriting is on the wall right now and it's only a matter of time before you will be running to the scene to read it, just in case there is a secret message there that might give you a few more years of personal pleasure.

Take a few moments after you read this post and go visit Craigslist.com. Click on any of the major city names in North America and then click on the boats topic. There you will see the evidence of a transitional economy in a bit of a fix, along with a totally pure statement from the freemarket as to fuel realities. Hundreds upon hundreds of expensive power boats up for sale with the sellers desperate to blow them out of their lives at some kind of price that will let them, maybe, break even on the balance they owe the bank.

At the same time, the manufacturers of these boats are going on three years running now in which they have seen the volume of boats sold, take hit after hit. Some of them are now cashing out their inventory and tooling, just to make an orderly escape from the free-falling marketplace.

The age of the glitzy over-priced, over engined, over everything'ed weekend power cruiser is coming to an end. It's like an asteroid from some far off place has blown a big hole in the water and all the dinosaurs are slowly croaking on the beaches.

So, if you are a passionate boater, what are you going to do?

First of all, you'll have to downsize the hull dimensions, engine size, overall weight and all the attendant goodies that went with the existing power boat paradigm. If you must continue to own a planing vessel to feel proper about your boating experience, then it's going to probably be in the form of a smaller, more easily driven vessel that does not leave you hanging with a USD$60K skiboat that nobody wants anymore.

I remember when I was a kid and the 50's rage of buying a smallish power boat arrived in our neighborhood so the Mom and Dad could take the kids water-skiing and fishing. These were modest boats with a pair of seats, a reasonable outboard of 20hp or so and they were easily trailered behind the anemic six cylinder engines in the family car of the day. We are going back to that kind of boating experience as a transitional phase as we head, inexorably, towards the description proffered by Rick with his emerging fondness for Human Powered Vessels for local waters enjoyment.

Gas will simply become too expensive for juicing the 300hp Suzuki powered Tige skiboat so it will run on plane and not beat the crap out of you while in displacement mode.

I envision that this transition phase will be populated with the newly emerging technologies of electric, diesel-electric, bio-diesel, gas-electric hybrids and maybe even more different power systems until some type of technology emerges as a defacto standard of sorts. There are lots of folks working on these problems right now, so it won't be long before they find their way into boats, as well as the much more critical, automobile segment of the transportation world.

To that end, I see boats that are much skinnier in shape, operating in a Very Slender Vessel envelope (VSV) where they can easily perform well into the two and three times the sq. root of the waterline, speed region and do it comfortably AND economically. Speeds being relative to the world around you, it will soon become comfortable to move at a more sedate pace, while running on mere fumes compared to the engines of today. It will take a little longer to get to your destination, but it will not force you to abandon the activity because it costs too much. We will use less fuel and the fuel we do use will be burned more efficiently than ever before.

Some folks will opt out of the boating scene when they begin to take all this into their heads. I expect the market to tighten some as a result. This, in turn, will put further pressure on the designers and manufacturers to develop hyper-efficient hulls for any given activity. There will be a shaking out process in the boat building industry as niche products and small builders will come to the fore, offering everything under the sun to prospective buyers. With large amounts of product diversity will come new design concepts and risk taking enterprises. In some ways, I see it as a Second Golden Age of Boating with truly innovative boats being developed to suit very specific recreational needs.

As a designer of small craft, I'm excited about the potential and do not see the looming fuel price crush as a problem at all. Quite the contrary, I see it as a huge potential to explore interesting design developments and get a chance to find out in the real world, just how well they will work when put to use by Joe Public.

At the same time that this upward price pressure is being applied to the fuel component, there will be an equal and unpredictable change in the pricing for conventional, resin based laminate structures that are the bread and butter of the boating trade today.

My take on this is that bio-based resins, fibers and paints will become the new material of this Second Golden Age of Boating. There are already several partially bio-based epoxy compounds out in the development market where the typically used epoxy resin is mixed with a soy oil based chemistry, yielding a resin that shows all the strength and bonding capabilities of epoxy alone. Less petroleum and moving towards more environmental friendliness in one significant move in the obvious direction. Similar, bio-based developments are taking place in the world of laminate fibers, as well as exterior paints.

What this all means is that the boating world, as we now know it, is going to blast through a materials barrier of sorts which will necessarily include the designers, as well as the fabricators of future boats.

Exciting times, indeed, with all of us benefiting from more responsible design trends, more environmentally sensitive use of materials and hopefully, a methodology of manufacturing that keeps these products affordable so that our kids will have a chance to enjoy the things we took for granted as our entitlement.

There is lots more to the story, but this is enough to chew on for the time being. My apologies if the take is on the lengthy side of things. I appreciate your indulgence.

 

Chris
A thought provoking contribution. I am glad you took the time to deliver it.

The thread may be hijacked.

There is a dilemma though. Millions of boats out there that are not suited to the times. Could be a market for conversion from planing to displacement.

I wonder how the makers of large outboards are doing?

I still think the DOH!! moment is a while away for many. The public are waiting for the Governments to fix the problem and lower fuel prices. In the US you can fill the tank in a Toyota Matrix for USD40. It would cost me almost twice that in Australia. Another thing I learnt is not to park between two Hummers. You cannot open the doors to exit your car as they occupy more than a full space. They need a spare parking space between them. You can just get out if you are parked between two Suburbans.

Rick W

 

Think of the adult bicycle industry of fifty years ago. Yeah, it didn't exist - bikes were for kids. Now we see all kinds of folks enjoying bicycling, on all kinds of fancy equipment. I can see pedals on the water, too.

I'm not sure it would be the best thing to become dependant on one technology the way we have on the internal combustion engine. At one time in the US there were as many electric and steam cars as gasoline-powered. How much easier would it be for us to address today's oil problem if there were another mature, developed option or two alongside the ICE?

 

Masalai:

The mercedes diesel for marine use can be found here:

http://www.dmv-bootsdiesel.de/Englisher Index/english_index.html

Hope this helps.

Regards

Alan

 

Quick question...
So let's say someone (like myself) reads this discussion and now would like to shop around for a displacement style boat that is not a sail boat and wants to bring 5 or so friends out fishing for the day on moderate US Long Island Sound seas and still be able to trailer it home.

Besides building my own, how does one acquire such a vessel?

 

You would have to look far and wide as there aren't any currently in production. That will change.

If you absolutely must buy new go to a small local shop like these guys

http://www.seawayboats.com

Get them to put some wedges in the aft bottom of their 24' mold and build her with a lighter (low speed) layup. Then buy a 40-60 HP four-cycle outboard.

Or you could recycle.....Buy a 70's-80's Aquasport or Mako center console. Cut the bottom off from the transom 4-6' forward. Cut 6" off the bottom of the transom, fill the hole with sheets of foam/honeycomb/Coosa board, and glass in place. Buy a new 50 HP four-cycle or modify the existing outboard by disconnecting a couple of cylinders.

Either project works for your local economy and provides direct work for your local boatbuilders. Hopefully none of your hard earned dollars go to prop up some corporation's share price or feed a bunch of executives that have nothing to do with your boat.

 

Tad, Nice images there but they are all trying to climb over the bow wave which means lots of energy wasted. an efficient displacement hull design should NOT try to climb over the bow wave - it Should have no bow wave....

 

masa...

I am not selling Seaway Boats, I do not endorse them in any way, do not approve of the way they run or are operated, and know nothing of the folks involved.

Canivour asked about buying a displacement boat. I suggested there are none for sale. I then suggested several ways to modify an existing planing boat to run more efficiently at lower speeds. An existing boat or tool will be far less expensive than a new build. Small builders are often happy to accommodate new market needs.

The Seaway just came to mind as somewhat appropriate due to a fine entry and reasonable beam/length. They run bow high when planing, I'm suggesting we forget that and underpower the boat.

Canivour wants to run his boat at this speed.......



But without that awful mess behind the boat. Thus we modify the run with rising buttocks to a cleaner exit. The bow is just fine at low speed.

 

Thanks Tad, It is just difficult to identify of visualise some of the USA brands... - Sorry I doubted it was your coy etc., I was more making a point for Canivour's benefit not meaning to imply anything untoward

I was looking around locally for something to illustrate the point but could find nothing except in my gallery of the Chamberlin C10 design going flat chat (16 knots) on twin 50 hp diesels - it is a 33 ft boat....,

I then got distracted with a long and pleasant chat with the builder, who is about to commence on the Chamberlin 12 m powercat for himself, and I heard that John Hitch is also going to build another - a powercat this time - for himself also... All that is needed now is for Bob Oram to do the same to have the trifecta of Queensland designers on new powercats for the future....