Desperate to sail

[laukejas]

rwatson, that's... Very interesting comparison but you made your point. It's good to know that there is a lot of different experience still ahead. Thank you.

Petros, I thought that there were upwind sailing even before! If you say that it's only a century since upwind sailing technique was developed, what about Age of Sail ships? Entire wars were fought in seas and oceans, with everything from schooners to full-rigged ships. I realize that with mostly-square sail rigging they were designed to run downwind, but they still had some upwind capability, right? If not, how could they go back and forth across the seas, harbors, etc? I assume that sometimes there just weren't favorable wind, and it was upwind sailing versus smashing into rocks choice. So, what was their upwind capability, if any, how many degrees from the wind?

troy2000, thank you for advice with leeboards, but it takes about 2 minutes to remove them (or to put them in place), so I'd rather not risk it, since boat covers a lot of distance while doing that, and I pretty much can't control it, unless I rig an autopilot (also I don't want to risk it in stronger winds).



Well, another sailing day. Wind was very strong and gusty today (15-20m/s gusts, according to forecast). I started upwind from the berth (I always do that, so if something goes wrong, I could return easily downwind with sail or oars, if worst would happen), and fought through these gusts. I have to say that it was very, very difficult to do - I expected that boat will be able to point higher with strong wind, but drift ruined things. I guess it has to do something with hull windage, or lack of my skill. I tried flattening sail, as I red in books, but still, it was difficult. So I climbed upwind about 500 meters through 200m wide sleeve for about an hour (I guess I had to tack 15-20 times in these 500 meters). That's estimated, not accurate. I guess boat makes about 50-60 degrees into the wind. Not very efficient, but it's better than nothing.

As I approached the end of the sleeve, where it opens up to the broad part of the lake, wind and gusts increased to a level that I didn't dare to continue. I turned downwind towards the berth.

And then the hell started...

Mast leant forward, stressing the stays, hull started to crack in their attachement points, one leeboard made a distinctive wood breaking sound, and the boat turned towards wind so strong and quick, that I couldn't counteract it with rudder. Sail started to flutter painfully, and the boat heeled so much that the side went underwater, and collected a few buckets of water. It would certainly collect more, but I released mainsheet, turned nose towards wind, sacrificing the sail rather than sinking the whole boat. Recovered from panic, I established upwind course again, since it seemed safest, and tried to slowly turn downwind again - same thing happened (I didn't turn exactly downwind, just some 30-40 degrees from downwind, with intention of zigzaging), I couldn't control the boat. I couldn't even remove leeboards, since I had to fight with the mainsheet and rudder. In seconds, I attached additional pulley to the mainsheet, and covered that 500m distance back to berth in less than 5 minutes - but as I approached it in about 5-6 knots I understood with horror that boat can't enter safety of that berth with leeboards still down, and if I remove them, it'll drift so much that we won't be able to come back. In lack of choice, I removed leeboards, folded the sail, and started oaring against wind. Sail freed itself from the folding line, and started flutter again. In about 10 minutes, this chaos finally ended.

Well, things could be worse. Sail shattered itself, unglued in few places. Leeboard broke a supportive wood block (because it was pierced with numerous wood screws without drilling holes first, my bad), but it's nothing too important. I'm just lucky that mast didn't fall, breaking off rails.

Repairs took me about 2 hours. I refitted the mast, attaching stays in 2 different places rather than 1 to distribute the load (also moving them backwards, to hold mast better on downwind), re-lashed leeboards differently so that stress is easiened on the wood and screws, and fixed unglued sail section with lots of almighty duct tape.

So, today I learned that nature is not something to joke with, and it's better to be safe than sorry.

Anyways, I don't remember exactly reading anything anywhere how to deal with wind gusts in upwind and downwind runs, so that they don't break or flip around the boat. In upwind, it seems intuitive to loosen the mainsheet and turn nose into the wind, but that might flutter the sail to death. On downwind, I don't know. Turn around to point nose into wind again? Might be dismasted by the time I do that. Try to increase speed, so that apparent wind would lower, and loads from the mast would easen?

If anyone can give any advice how to deal with gusts in boat where things barely hold, I would appreciate that. I don't plan to sail into similar conditions again, but they can happen without warning as they did today.

 

[rwatson]

Great story Mr L. Keep them coming. Everyone reading will be taken back to hundreds of little disasters over the years.

Just a few of my comments before the others get up,

rwatson, that's... Very interesting comparison but you made your point. It's good to know that there is a lot of different experience still ahead.

You have just had your first fight with this 'girlfriend'

Petros, I thought that there were upwind sailing even before! If you say that it's only a century since upwind sailing technique was developed, what about Age of Sail ships? Entire wars were fought in seas and oceans, with everything from schooners to full-rigged ships.

Yup, Petros has it right. Some of the replica square riggers that visit us from time to time talk about having to tack back and forth for weeks until the wind changes, unable to make more than about 80% of reaching degrees at best.

Even the epitome of old style square riggers, the Clipper Ships "something clipper ships, which could sail no closer than 60 or 70 degrees off
the wind, did poorly despite their vast spreads of canvas. "
http://www.mhprofessional.com/downloads/products/0071547991/0071547991_cort_ch_1.pdf

Well, another sailing day. Wind was very strong and gusty today (15-20m/s gusts, according to forecast). .... And then

So, today I learned that nature is not something to joke with, and it's better to be safe than sorry.

Welcome to the great experience - you will be telling your grandchildren this story in future years.

Anyways, I don't remember exactly reading anything anywhere how to deal with wind gusts in upwind and downwind runs, so that they don't break or flip around the boat. In upwind, it seems intuitive to loosen the mainsheet and turn nose into the wind, but that might flutter the sail to death.

Good points. In the upwind situation, the trick is not to let the sails flutter, just point higher into the wind without stalling. After a while, you will realise that you cant get knocked over on a beat if you pay attention to your rudder.

On downwind, I don't know. Turn around to point nose into wind again? Might be dismasted by the time I do that. Try to increase speed, so that apparent wind would lower, and loads from the mast would easen?

If anyone can give any advice how to deal with gusts in boat where things barely hold, I would appreciate that. I don't plan to sail into similar conditions again, but they can happen without warning as they did today.

On downwind, your gear just has to be able to stand it. There is no other solution. Either that or take the sails down and row. You do have a pair of oars onboard at all times, and you wear a flotation device dont you ?????

Either that, or restrict yourself to light wind days only.
Keep up the news, its great reading.

 

[daiquiri]

I don't plan to sail into similar conditions again, but they can happen without warning as they did today.

You have arrived to the best conclusion by yourself. Avoid sailing in stronger winds because you don't have a boat suitable for that weather condition.

Sailing downwind is much trickier than sailing upwind, and can be very physically demanding, both for the sailor and for the boat. Odd things can happen when going downwind, boat wandering around, periodically rolling, violently flipping over towards the windward side!

The rudder commands the boat upwinds, the sails command it downwinds.

I remember that back in my days of Laser sailing, the boat could get pretty difficult to control in downwind conditions in a strong wind. It was a continuous coordinated work with the tiller, the body position and the sheets. The goal of that body dance was preventing the so-called "death roll" - the tip of the mast moving windward over the centreline of the boat and flipping the boat to the windward side. it happens because the top part of the sail sees a stronger true wind component of the wind speed vector a strong windward-pointed heeling moment which sums up with the sailors body weight and capsizes the boat:



A strong and variable-direction wind turbulence is something you cannot control, and it's difficult to give a good and universally-valid advice. Perhaps the best one was given to you by Rwatson - when things get really nasty, pull down your sails and start rowing.

There is an old nautical proverb, which can be the lifesaving one:

"Hoist your sail when the wind is fair"​

Follow that advice and you will enjoy countless moments of relaxed and pleasurable sailing.

Cheers

 

[laukejas]

Yup, Petros has it right. Some of the replica square riggers that visit us from time to time talk about having to tack back and forth for weeks until the wind changes, unable to make more than about 80% of reaching degrees at best.

That's so horrible. How come that in hundreds of years of sailing, it took so long (until the last century, as Petros said) that upwind sailing technique was found at last? Apart from roving, sailing was the main method of traveling on the water. It is hard to believe that in from times since the man first made a sail until last century no one discovered upwind sailing technique even by accident. And in wartime, millions were spent to make these ships - I think that having upwind capability could turn the tide of the war - how come they didn't invest into research? Upwind sailing isn't such a big deal if even an amateur today can make a boat that does this. Maybe it seems very easy once you know it, still... Really horrible. I never realized this. I thought these tall ships had poor upwind performance, but not 80 degrees.

Good points. In the upwind situation, the trick is not to let the sails flutter, just point higher into the wind without stalling. After a while, you will realise that you cant get knocked over on a beat if you pay attention to your rudder.

Thank you for this advice. I will certainly try it if I get into similar conditions (hope not!)

On downwind, your gear just has to be able to stand it. There is no other solution. Either that or take the sails down and row. You do have a pair of oars onboard at all times, and you wear a flotation device dont you ?????

Well, with this sail folding around mast system, I can't really drop the sail - I have to stand up and fold it around the mast, which is pretty uncomfortable and dangerous, since boat may flip over while I do that. I didn't consider this when I made it - with traditional halyard system it would be less dangerous and way faster to lower sail. In fact, with the system I have now, it takes about 3 minutes to get from rowing arrangement to sailing, and vice versa - I have to take oars out, place one on deck, set another as a rudder, insert both leeboards in oar sockets, lash them to the hull so they don't jump out, unfold the sail, run the mainsheet through blocks, tie and tension boom vang, and then gather some speed before I can start upwind sailing. That's a lot of work during which boat is totally uncontrollable. Now when I've got a knack for it, I can do it in 3 minutes - I don't think it's possible to do it a lot faster. Every time I launch, I row against the wind for a 100 meters or so, and then do this conversion to sailing mode, while wind drifts the boat. Can't do all this in berth - too shallow for leeboards there, and without them, raising sail is futile - boat would drift into reeds and lilies. And everything I described here has to be undone to get back to rowing arrangement, it takes just about the same 3 minutes, and it can't be done in strong wind (mostly lowering sail). Sometimes, if wind blows towards the berth, I'm able to take out the leeboards, and drift the boat under sail into the berth - it helps a lot, but the best point I can manage without leeboards is about 140 degrees of the wind, so, you can guess it's pretty hard.

Well, the price I have to pay for being able to sail at all! If I had centerboard and sail raised by halyard, all this could be done under half a minute, I guess.

Talking of flotation device, I must admit I don't have one. Not because of ignorance - I already capsized with a friend on his home made junk rig sailboat - and I recognize that this is a must have, however, there isn't a place here to buy it. When I get back to the city, I'll certainly buy and use it, but now there aren't any options.
On the "bright" side, if I capsized and sank this rented boat... Well, it's better to drown than to face the family and the owners of the boat

As you saw, the boat is very wide and very stable. It will take about the same wind as I experienced that day and a bit of stupidity on my part to actually capsize, so I won't risk going out in similar conditions anymore with this boat.



The aforementioned experienced sailor arrived, so I made a show run, she evaluated everything, and, I'll let myself to boast a bit - she said that my skill and knowledge surpasses the boat I have to sail with by a long margin, in other words - I should get a better boat Feeling very proud now.

Also, there was a photoshoot. I'm on limited internet capacity here (using it from phone), so I'll have to upload these photos a bit later - but there will be a lot of them

 

[troy2000]

Laukejas, square-rigged clipper ships weren't designed to go upwind. They were rigged to follow trade routes where they could sail with the prevailing winds. That doesn't mean there were no ships at the time that could go upwind....

Fore-and-aft rigs are much better at it. There have been spritsails and lateen rigs for two thousand years or better; coastal trading in the US was dominated by schooner rigs for a long time. The main problem with schooner rigs was that sail area couldn't broken up into smaller, more manageable sails like it could be on a square-rigged ship. Until the advent of things like steel cables and steam winches there was a limit on how large a schooner's sails could be, and still be raised, lowered and controlled.

On the other hand, traditional small craft all over the world have used fore-and-aft rigs of one sort or another for countless generations.

add: I lost internet for a couple of hours, before I could mention the other failing of vessels with fore-and-aft rigs. They're harder to control downwind than square-rigged vessels. Nina, one of Columbus's three ships, was originally lateen-rigged. When he reached the Canary Islands he converted her to a square-rigged ship, because he was following the prevailing winds west.

 

[rwatson]

....
Fore-and-aft rigs are much better at it. There have been spritsails and lateen rigs for two thousand years or better;.....

Good points, and interesting historical info.

Of course, the problem wasn't just the sails, but the hull form.

Keels are essential to good windward performance, and exotic hull shapes meant a sacrifice in carrying capacity. Even centreboards muck up a lot of the freight space.

I have attached a photo of a a small coastal trading ship ( The "May Queen" ) from the 1930's with a huge centreboard. Its hard to make out in the photo, as a bit of the wooden 'gate' is hidden behind the white information board, but its all that dark brown wood after the yellow deck bag, ( and about the same height) to half way along the boom towards the white boom crutch for the mainmast.

Its only been since sailing became a sport that a lot of emphasis and research has been directed at pure hull form performance.

 

[troy2000]

Good points, and interesting historical info.

Of course, the problem wasn't just the sails, but the hull form.

Keels are essential to good windward performance, and exotic hull shapes meant a sacrifice in carrying capacity. Even centreboards muck up a lot of the freight space.

I have attached a photo of a a small coastal trading ship ( The "May Queen" ) from the 1930's with a huge centreboard. Its hard to make out in the photo, as a bit of the wooden 'gate' is hidden behind the white information board, but its all that dark brown wood after the yellow deck bag, ( and about the same height) to half way along the boom towards the white boom crutch for the mainmast.

Its only been since sailing became a sport that a lot of emphasis and research has been directed at pure hull form performance.

Wow... now that's a serious centerboard.

 

[Petros]

I think it was a combination of factors that prevented sailing ship development, mostly it was adhereace to tradition (particlularly for investors, bankers and insurers of the larger ships), and the understanding of fluid mechanics and aerodynamics. If there was a faster way to get cargo and passengers to their destination they would have done it (it would have been more profitable), but they just did not have the understanding of the science. Therefore all commercial trade routes were planned around prevailing winds and currents.

It was not until the invention of viable aircraft was there extensive investment into the science of fluid mechanics, and you could not have viable aircraft without a powerful and efficient engine. Of course once the engine was viable by itself, it rendered sail powered boats and ships obsolete, expect for sport or recreation (which is where we are still today).

I watched the launches of several tall ships at local boat gatherings, they had to go with the tide. They shoved off and drifted out of the harbor with the outgoing tide (along with all the flotsam and other floating debris), after about an hour they were finally out away from land far enough to lower their sails. After several hours at sea at the whim of wind and current, on a "dinner" cruise, they started their diesel engines to return to port.

With just the invention of the center board, the outcome of many famous sea battles would have been completely different. But that did not come along until modern times, and applying the government research paid for the development of aircraft, did it occur to anyone, in relatively modern times, that sailboats could be developed to point very high into the wind. And just like the thousands of "hobbyists", who now build sucessful sport aircraft in the home shops, basements or garages, many amateurs can build sailboats that can point into the wind, because the now the knowledge of how it is done is easy to access and widely known.

Consider that control flight in man carrying aircraft had taken centuries and much investment to build the first one, but now there are many people that build their own aircraft in their home with no more education in science as a plumber might get. it is all due to the available technology of how it is done.

 

[sharpii2]

I think it was a combination of factors that prevented sailing ship development, mostly it was adhereace to tradition (particlularly for investors, bankers and insurers of the larger ships), and the understanding of fluid mechanics and aerodynamics. If there was a faster way to get cargo and passengers to their destination they would have done it (it would have been more profitable), but they just did not have the understanding of the science. Therefore all commercial trade routes were planned around prevailing winds and currents.

Actually the hulls of the 19th century were quite efficient. they didn't go upwind well because they had long shallow keels, no center boards, and were rigged to sail cross wind and down wind well. They didn't have centerboards for three likely reasons.
1.) Cost. Such a device would add considerably to the construction cost, and wouldn't be done unless the vessel was very shallow for its length, or upwind ability was a major consideration,
2.) A higher likely hood of damage due to running aground with the board down, or excessive leaking about the center board case, and
3.) Most voyages were planned for downwind or cross wind sailing, which, by the way, is true even today with cruising yachts.

It was not until the invention of viable aircraft was there extensive investment into the science of fluid mechanics, and you could not have viable aircraft without a powerful and efficient engine. Of course once the engine was viable by itself, it rendered sail powered boats and ships obsolete, expect for sport or recreation (which is where we are still today).

I watched the launches of several tall ships at local boat gatherings, they had to go with the tide. They shoved off and drifted out of the harbor with the outgoing tide (along with all the flotsam and other floating debris), after about an hour they were finally out away from land far enough to lower their sails. After several hours at sea at the whim of wind and current, on a "dinner" cruise, they started their diesel engines to return to port.

With just the invention of the center board, the outcome of many famous sea battles would have been completely different. But that did not come along until modern times, and applying the government research paid for the development of aircraft, did it occur to anyone, in relatively modern times, that sailboats could be developed to point very high into the wind. And just like the thousands of "hobbyists", who now build sucessful sport aircraft in the home shops, basements or garages, many amateurs can build sailboats that can point into the wind, because the now the knowledge of how it is done is easy to access and widely known.

The so called 'drop keel' was invented by an English warship captain back in the 18th century. It may have even been used on a few war ships then. But the nature of fighting, in the days of sail, required enormous fire power, meaning lots of cannons. These cannons were heavy and they had to be a reasonable distance above the waterline. Not only that, but they put considerable strain on the wooden hulls of the time. The famous British three decker man-o-war was an effective solution to that problem. It made the ship's hull a deeper beam to resist the bending. It also cost enormous freeboard and windage. American and French warships were sleeker, with one and a half to two gun decks. faster, and almost certainly better up wind. But the British ships lasted longer. And, for the most part, the British dominated the oceans back then.

According to Chapelle, the centerboard was in wide use in America (USA) around the time of the Civil War 1861-1865 or shortly afterword. Before that, it appears that long keels were the rule and Leeboards were an occasional exception. Fin keels were tried in the late 1800's for yacht racing. Getting a sailboat to sail up wind well is a major design challenge (as this thread has demonstrated) and requires design compromises that many, in the age of sail, probably didn't think worth it. It is no accident the Moslems used to say: "Only a fool or a Christian sails up wind", even though it was one of their cultures that probably developed the lateen sail. Even back in the 19th century there were boats that could sail upwind quite well. They generally had deeper versions of the then standard long keel, had deep 'V' like hulls, lots of ballast, and were very low and sleek. They were often rigged with just one sail, as the materials science needed to make jibs stand well wasn't there yet.

Consider that control flight in man carrying aircraft had taken centuries and much investment to build the first one, but now there are many people that build their own aircraft in their home with no more education in science as a plumber might get. it is all due to the available technology of how it is done.

Se comments in text.

 

[Boat Design Net Moderator]

Note: some posts split into their own new thread at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/al...amics-hydrodynamics-related-issues-47975.html

 

[Petros]

still waiting for those photos of it under sail.

 

[laukejas]

Sorry for the delay. Took these pictures a while ago, but had some problems with connecting camera to laptop, and with this horribly slow internet connection. At last, they are uploaded. (Due to some upload limit, I'll post them in several posts)

Behold.

First three photos were taken with phone from inside the boat - the day I almost capsized (during that near-capsize phone fell into the water in the bilge, had to dry it for several days).
You can closely see mast step, lashed leeboards (this setup was improved following day, cutting most of the time needed to lower and raise them), and so called mainsheet rail.

To be continued

 

[laukejas]

These next photos were taken with camera, by my father. In first two you may see me struggling with these damn leeboards, trying to lash them down as quick as possible. And from then on - fully complete sailing setup (except for boom vang, which I deemed not necessary for these winds), sailing upwind and downwind for show.

To be continued

 

[messabout]

Laukejas. now that you have the boat sailing, you can begin to think about fine tuning the sail a little bit. The leech is curling over. Not good. The sail appears to have some roach. Consider cutting that off or at least taping on some thin battens so that the trailing edge does not curl. You might even consider taking a narrow tapered piece of fabric out of the seams near the leech.

You have the sail lashed to the mast with a worm pattern and the sail is not free to move with respect to the mast. Try changing the way it is attached at the luff. First, tie off the head with a tiny but of clearance between the luff and the mast, run the line down to the next grommet and put the line through. Now take a turn around the mast and bring the line back through the same grommet, exiting on the side that it first entered Do that on the next grommet down, and so on. Do not make the loops tight. Leave just a little bit of space between the mast and the luff, maybe one centimeter more or less. Give the sail the freedom to do what it wants to do at sail/ mast connection. This may take a bit of experimentation to get it just right.The sail will probably set a little better if you do this. If it sets better it will sail better.

One more thing. I do not think that you need a two part purchase on the main sheet. You will feel the sail in your hand better if you use only a single part tackle. Especially in light air. In heavier air you will have a better feel for how much strain you are putting on the rig.

Fix the leach, tinker with the luff and go sailing some more.

Best of luck to you

 

[laukejas]

In the last photo, you may clearly see the sail damage (unglued edge), which, as I mentioned, was a result of that near-capsize I mentioned earlier. I had to return to the shore soon after taking these pictures for repairs.
Except for that sail damage, this is more or less final setup, the one I still use without any major changes, a completely lake-worthy sailboat. I took her out several times after, had one major all-day trip to the other end of the lake, about 8km total, through conditions ranging from 15m/s breeze (double stay attachment proved to be very reliable and firm, you may see it in photos) to a complete still, wind so calm that it even doesn't move fluffs on the water, from sun scorching, inviting for a refreshing little capsize to a small rain with thunders which made me seek shelter so that the mast wouldn't become a lightning rod. In all but most extreme conditions this boat does it's job. It takes a while to make any reasonable upwind distance, but at least it's comparable with upwind performance of these tall ships rwatson first mentioned. Adjusting for the size, of course.

So, that's about it. If this rig will hold to the end of the month, I'll save it for next summer - if there won't be any better options, I'll be able to continue practicing on this little boat. In the meantime, I'll try to buy or make (working on a design) something more versatile and durable.

I thought of a name for this one. "The string" (not sure that's the best translation into English, but in Lithuanian, that sounds very tender and diminutive), due to the fact that most of this boat holds on strings and ropes.

I thank you all again for the invaluable help you provided, and for the inspiring support, without which I probably wouldn't have even tried - it seemed and impossible and ridiculous task at first. It proved out to be an amusing and fun little project, in no small debt to all of you who replied in my time of need.

Thank you.