Desperate to sail

Well, leech is curled due to two reasons in these photos. First is that sail damage, the leech edge unglued and rolled over, so it looks like sail has a roach. I fixed that. Secondly, even before the damage, there was still some curling tendency. I fixed that with addition of boom vang (a simple line that doesn't allow boom to raise, no fancy hardware). With enough tension, curl goes away.
Since the leech is completely straight line (it was designed without any roach, since this was a genoa), I though battens are unnecessary. But maybe I could add them. Don't have materials for that right now, but I'll look into it.
I never quite understood these battens - I mean, I know how they work, but I don't get what are the correct lengths, widths and places of these battens. All I know they should be perpendicular to the leech. Could you please shed some light on their shape and placement, please?

Okay, I will re-lash the sail as you suggested, what you described seems better. Thanks!

Speaking of mainsheet pulleys, I actually use 1 on light winds (1:1 ratio) due to the reasons you suggested (and because sail can't free mainsheet enough from pulleys), but in stronger winds, it becomes really hard to hold that sheet, since I have to control it with one hand (another is on the tiller), so if I have to trim, I have to do it with fingers of that one hand. So, to make it easier, then I add another pulley (takes 10-20 seconds to do that), for 1:2 ratio. Even with that, it might be uncomfortable in stronger winds, but manageable.

 

I think we've all enjoyed your thread immensely. Thank you for letting us go sailing with you...

 

I'm guessing Virviukas or šniurukas?
(My Lithuanian is extremely rusty.)

 

the battens can be flat strips of wood or round dowels (even large twigs you find in the woods). the longer the better since it helps hold the shape of the same, reduces stress on the fabric. The minimum usually three, can use more if you want, and the min length is usually considered to have two times the length of the roach, and as you pointed out, perpendicular to the leech. On full length ones I run them parallel to the boom so it can be reefed (the full length batten make it easier to reef as well).

I have used light wood strips about 3-4mm thick, and 30mm wide running all the way from the leach to the luff parallel to the boom, used glue between the fabric and the batten, and added duck tape on top. I had considerable roach on it and it made the sail more efficient (more elliptical shape) and easier to handle. It can be done with just the batten and duck tape.

You will be surprised at how much it helps the drive, it makes the fabric hold a better shape (flatter toward the leech, and if not full length, it will have more camber towards the luff). Well worth the effort to improve sail performance.

two further improvements to think about: larger lee board (lower aspect ratio), and a better rudder.

 

PVC pipe works for battens

 

Ditto.

 

Thank you for the kind words, troy2000 I'm glad that it was a mutual pleasure.

Very close, Leo! Virvutė Has to be female gender, for the boat is a she. Since old proverb says that a nameless boat carries misfortune, I had to name it, even though she is only partly mine (being rented, that is). I noticed that sailing characteristics improved significantly since naming - guess that proverb is correct.

Thank you, Petros, but I have a few more questions about them battens. If you used full length battens, 3-4mm thick wood strips, how come they didn't flatten sail too much in light winds? I imagine it takes some force to actually bend them. I believe that stronger wind might do it, but in light wind, when larger camber is needed, don't these battens do the opposite?
Second question, in regard to the first - when you taped these battens to the sail, did you duck tape them completely straight, or did you already induce some camber by bending that wood strip before duck taping? Maybe question is silly, I don't know if that would work, but I just can't imagine how battens that thick could be bent by wind enough.

Actually I love battens, and I seriously think how to make some. I have lots of duck tape (amazing thing - it, together with rope, can fix almost anything), but I don't have these wood strips, nor did I ever see them to buy in hardware and lumber stores in big cities, not to even mention small villages I have around. I can (maybe!) get some wood strips for next season, but for now - is there any other material I can make them from? I'll look for them twigs, and you mentioned round dowels - what are they? Can't find anything related on the dictionary, my bad English!

Speaking of leeboards, I mentioned, I red in "Principles of yacht design" by Larsson and Eliasson that board area must be around 3.5% of the sail area. Mine is 7%, and drift still occurs. So, really, what is the actual percentage I should aim for? I still don't get why my leeboards are too small, even in high speed, where high ratio pays off.

 

All right, them battens are made. Took a branch of fallen poplar (smells very fine, and is flexible - at least until drying), and in about 3 hours, I made 3 battens - top one is about 15cm long, middle one - around 30, and the bottom batten - 60cm (not full length battens, since they might interfere with "lowering" the sail. Perpendicular to leech, since no reefing will be required). I made them flat, around 2-3mm thick, 0.7-1cm wide (couldn't make wider, since the branch was like that). Already installed top batten, but I'm waiting on the lower two - they are a little bent due to natural curve of the branch, and I'm attempting to straighten them by leaving for some time bent in the other direction (with some rope). I hope they'll straighten out. I know there is a method with hot water and rags, but I think this isn't worth the effort.

I just hope they won't flatten the sail too much. I made them as thin and flexible as I dared. Will try them out day after tomorrow, since tomorrow is a no-sail day.

messabout, I lashed the sail to the mast as you suggested, and tried today - works very good! It improved sail shape a lot. Thank you. It never occurred to me, such a simple thing.

 

Probably because high speed on your boat isn't really very speedy, although it sure feels like it. It isn't a race boat.

I personally would have made plates, not blades, in your position. If you look at some of the leeboards at this link, you'll notice the builders generally didn't seem worried about high aspect ratios: http://www.leeboards.com/

 

I've enjoyed this thread too.

I once had a boat I built myself, which had plastic drop cloths bordered with duct tape for sails.

It was very good at sailing down wind. Up wind, she wasn't so hot.

I took some quarter round molding and made a batten that was less than a foot (30.5cm) long and added it to the very top of the sail. It worked beautifully in flattening the sail.

I then made a rack on each side of the boat, to turn the two lee boards, which were constantly popping up, into two side dagger boards.

That fixed her.

She then sailed quite well.

For your sail, I'd be tempted to go with full length battens, which run parallel to the foot (bottom edge) of the sail.

Twigs and branches that are maybe 13- 15 mm in diameter might work really well. If they are crooked and green, you can probably straighten them out by first heating them over a campfire (the same way arrows used to be straightened).

If you don't have a halyard, you can splay them out in a hand fan fashion, instead, so the Boom can be folded up against the mast. The battens don't have to be full length, but I think, in your situation, longer is better.

I'd install them with the fat end facing the leech (trailing edge) of the sail.

You could also make a crude boom gallows, by lashing a loop of rope, a metal ring, or a pulley at the top of the mast. A line would then go from the end of the boom, up through the loop then down along the mast.

When furling the sail, pull on this line and it will raise the end of the Boom. You could then keep raising it until it is up against the mast.

Then you could wrap the rest of that line around the mast, in a spiral fashion, then tie or cleat your end off. You would then have a way to furl your sail without removing the mast.

 

Alright, them battens are installed, looks perfect - only to my miserable discovery that it is nearly impossible to fold the sail around the mast the old fashioned way. Sharpii2, I do exactly as you say, except for these boom gallows. But the principle is the same. It worked perfectly... Until battens.

Thing is, that since they run perpendicular to the leech, they also quite high angle to the luff. So, when I fold the sail, they happen to be almost perpendicular to the mast. On the ground, I can lift part of the sail, and tuck it around to place battens alongside the mast, and then wrap the line around the sail, but I won't be able to do that on the water without breaking the battens.

Tough call now. With current setup, I won't have the ability to fold the sail unless I remove the mast (that takes a long time, and can't be done on water). I had an idea of making additional rivets on the sail by the leech, near the battens, and run something like a halyard to raise the ends of battens to bring them alongside the mast, but it's difficult to do it by hand, so I don't believe that will work.
I'm considering re-rigging to halyard system. Problem is twofold: first, the mast is rough, and with the tools I have, it'll take like 10-15 hours to make it smooth enough for raising the sail. Secondly, as you can see from the pictures, stays are attached not to the top of the mast, above the sail, but rather lower. It would also interfere with halyard system, since sail is tied to the mast by those rings.
Other than that, the only solution I know for halyard system except for these rings is that which professionally built yachts use - you know, that tunnel inside the mast. However, that is also beyond my capabilities and tools.

Maybe someone can suggest something? Is there any other sail raising system except this current folding around the mast (you can see it in photos), that I could use, considering rough mast and stays that are attached mid-mast?

I would really appreciate any suggestions, because I'm afraid this batten thing will have to go away, and I wouldn't want to - they make sail so beautifully-shaped...

 

Laukejas; you may not realize that you have originated one of our more interesting threads. You have attracted the attention and replies from some of the better minds in the world of boats. One of them is a world reknowned college professor whose specialty is hydrodynamics, research, and impossibly difficult mathematics, another is an aeronautical engineer whose hobby is to build and race sail boats built of primitive materials at practically no cost, another is an internationally known naval architect. Several others are more than modestly knowledgeable too.

I just thought that you might like to know that some exceptionally credentialed people are exchanginging information with you.. I definitely do not not include myself in that elite group. But I do know who the real ones are.

You have been a first class respondent, who acknowledges the advisory posts in a courteous, grateful, and gentlemanly manner. Not every one does that. That and your sheer determination against all odds is why you have our attention.

 

If the only way you can reef the sail is to roll it around the mast than the battens have to be put in more vertically. they will still help hold the shape, they just have to be much longer if they are going to be more vertical.

If you install a simple halyard to raise and lower the sail, so reefing can be done on the boom, than conventional horizontal battens can be used.

In full length battens you get the curve from the shape of the sail, it is not a flat sheet but the perimeter is slightly shorter than the quivalent flat pattern sail of the same plan form, so it holds the curved shape. You can also make them curve by pulling on the verious corners of the sail: out haul, down haul or cunningham, boom vang and so fourth. put the stiff end of the batten toward the trailing edge (leech) and it will take a better shape on its own when you tension the sail fabric.

A dowel is the English word for a round piece (usually wood but the term is also used for other materials) with some length. Often referred to as a "dowel rod". A round pencil shaft is a dowel, for example. A round straight stick or twig could be considered a dowel. A dowel usually does not have any taper.

 

I agree with Troy, this has been a great thread!

Keep up the fun work.

Wayne

 

Messabout, what you told... I had no idea. I was sure there were professionals, but not on that level. Thank you for telling me. I really feel honored, that such people found time to help, in comparison, small fry like me. I really appreciate it, although I can't find any way to repay for the help, except for to put that new knowledge into action, and try to make the best results...

Petros, thank you for clarification. I think I now understand how they work.

But speaking of halyard raising system, is it possible to make with the stay attachment system I have now? As I said, I don't have the tools to make a hollow tunnel in mast to make it work like in yachts, and the ring system won't work because of these stays.
Is there anything like it I could make out of ropes and primitive hardware (wooden screws, and pulleys is all I have left)?

Because I can see that the fold-around the mast will certainly not work. I could make battens more vertical, but it still seems dangerous to break them while folding. They're very fragile.

Maybe I should move stays to the top of the mast, above the sail, and work for additional two days to make mast smooth enough. But even then I'm not sure it'll work. I remember that with my old catamaran, it has a hell to make mast smooth enough - sail rings would always get stuck while raising sail, particularly when almost raised. In the end, I cut some desert straws and inserted them around the rings to make them smooth. That did it.

But I hope there is some other way to make halyard raising system with stays in the position you can see in photos. Is there?