Tiki 21 rudder thoughts

Swedewood

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I have started building a Wharram Tiki 21. I’ve studied the design extensively and I am well aware of the pros and cons of it. My intended use is a fun dailsailer, have fun in the water platform.
With that said, and I know there are some older threads on the subject, I refuse to believe that the skegg hung rudder can not be improved.
I know it’s not a high performance cat, but having sailed both Hobie 16 and Topaz 14 I know the effect a well designed rudder have. As soon as speed increases you get a bit of lift and reduced leeway.
My plan is to remove the skegg, make a naca profiled kick up rudder with a decent planform.
Any thoughts on this?
 
Thank you for your reply. However, what I’m looking for is qualified opinions on what to expect in handling and sailing characteristics from having a more effective rudder whitout a skegg.
 
Can you qualify what you mean by a "more effective" rudder?

Losing the skeg will reduce wetted area, and also reduce rudder support. Unless you are concerned with gains of less than a fraction of a knot, I would follow the plan.
 
The skeg is a part of the rudder and helps provide camber in the rudder while turning.

My thought is you are planning on putting formula one tires on a pickup.
 
Try to get hold of Boatsmith in Florida. With Wharram's approval, he redesigned one of the classics for construction in foam glass that included deleting the skegs. I think he may have done this on his T30 too. He said that the skegs impaired the effectiveness of the rudders.

Not being an expert, I have no idea about the validity of his argument but its probably worth talking to him.
 
Try to get hold of Boatsmith in Florida. With Wharram's approval, he redesigned one of the classics for construction in foam glass that included deleting the skegs. I think he may have done this on his T30 too. He said that the skegs impaired the effectiveness of the rudders.

Not being an expert, I have no idea about the validity of his argument but its probably worth talking to him.
Thanks. I’ll try to get a hold of him.
 
The skeg is a part of the rudder and helps provide camber in the rudder while turning.

My thought is you are planning on putting formula one tires on a pickup.
Sometimes a pickup performs better with a new set of tires
I have built and rebuilt boats professionally for more than twenty five years but always monohulls, multihulls are scarce in my corner of the world.
I have also rebuilt or made new rudders to monohull raceboats and dinghies but there’s always a keel or centerboard in that equation.
I know it’s a bit of apples and oranges but no one would consider putting a skeg on a Hobie 16…
 
I know it’s a bit of apples and oranges but no one would consider putting a skeg on a Hobie 16…
But a Tiki 21 being compared to a Hobie IS an apples an orange coparison. Two very different boats despite having two hulls.
 
Wharrams are similar to beach cats. I used to carry an aluminum ladder lashed to the bow crossbeam to get off on the beach. The bow was almost dry. Without the skeg, and a deep rudder it won't have the grounding protection, it won't be able to get in really shallow water, and it will never be a high performance catamaran. If you want high performance there are better designs.
 
I know it’s a bit of apples and oranges but no one would consider putting a skeg on a Hobie 16…
That is because they have kick-up rudders.
 
That is because they have kick-up rudders.
That is exactly what I’m getting at.
I love the Wharram design for what it is. Whatever boat I’m sailing I want it to perform at its best.
On our family yacht, a 36ft from 1973, I have put naca profiles and sharp trailing edges on both keel and rudder. Huge improvement and not something I consider sacreligious.
To make my Tiki 21 perform to its best I will either make skeg and rudder with a naca profile or do it without the skeg and a kick up rudder.
I had a feeling the discussion would head in this direction.
We all know that as far as profiles go a kick up rudder would be vastly superior, more lift, less resistance, less leeway given the same area but different planform.
I am just curious whether anyone has actually tried it on a Wharram. I will try to reach out to Boatsmith, I found a picture last night of a Tiki 30 that he built with a kick up.
 
No one is suggesting that superior profiles do not offer more lift etc. It is the nature of the hulls you are fitting them too.

It is quite possible you may get a better helm "feel" and possibly, a measurable differance in pointing angle, if you had original data for the same hulls with stock rudders to compare with; otherwise, how do you know its an improvement?
 
To make my Tiki 21 perform to its best I will either make skeg and rudder with a naca profile or do it without the skeg and a kick up rudder.
If you keep the same planform to skeg and rudder, improvement is likely to be too little to be noticeable, even if you were racing other Tiki 21s. If you install kickup rudders with a good profile and deeper draft, you can get, as you say, more lift and less resistance. However, I expect Wharrams to be designed to get only a modest proportion of leeway resistance from its rudders, both because they are on the small side, and because skeg-hung rudders have no balance, and loading them up increases loads on the tiller. So if you keep the rig as it is, you improve the lift to drag ratio of a part of your lateral plan that contributes only a little to lateral resistance. Your overall leeway would not change, because more lift from the rudders would simply make you fall off. You would have the same leeway, but with a little less drag from the rudders. Though if you make the rudders so large and deep that you reduce their angle of attack to, for example, 1 degree, you will have a low lift to drag ratio again.

If you want to get real benefit, you would have to copy Hobies, which load up their rudders by moving the rigs aft. They do that by mast rake, because that boat also wasn't originally designed for this. The Tiki having a boomless main, you would need one with a higher clew.

You might want to reinforce the stern a little, and if you want to keep the shape as designed, take into account that the steering axis of your kick up rudders will be raked forward. Check the arc of your rudder blade tips when hitting the ground. If the tips arc down, they must lift the stern while kicking up. That would introduce vertical loads that your rudder fittings may not be designed for.

AYRS (Amateur Yacht Research Society) booklet #95, which you can download from Booklets – Amateur Yacht Research Society https://www.ayrs.org/booklets/, contains a report from a Tangaroa owner who put small endplates under the hulls. That would reduce leeway and may, if you get the shape right, improve the lift to drag ratio of the hulls, when going upwind. When there is little or no lateral load, you would have more drag.

Bernd Koehler has used that idea on some of his designs.

You could keep the Wharram rudders and make them more effective by adding an endplate. As above, to get the most from this you would have to load up the rudders more, and with skeg-hung rudders, that increases the load on the tiller.

In summary, you should be faster upwind and have less leeway if you use deeper rudders with better profile, and redistribute the lateral loads away from the hulls and onto those more efficient rudders. You may be able to improve the lift to drag ratio of the hulls a little as well. These would be the smallest design changes I can think of to improve upwind speed. You may lose some downwind speed.
 
If you keep the same planform to skeg and rudder, improvement is likely to be too little to be noticeable, even if you were racing other Tiki 21s. If you install kickup rudders with a good profile and deeper draft, you can get, as you say, more lift and less resistance. However, I expect Wharrams to be designed to get only a modest proportion of leeway resistance from its rudders, both because they are on the small side, and because skeg-hung rudders have no balance, and loading them up increases loads on the tiller. So if you keep the rig as it is, you improve the lift to drag ratio of a part of your lateral plan that contributes only a little to lateral resistance. Your overall leeway would not change, because more lift from the rudders would simply make you fall off. You would have the same leeway, but with a little less drag from the rudders. Though if you make the rudders so large and deep that you reduce their angle of attack to, for example, 1 degree, you will have a low lift to drag ratio again.

If you want to get real benefit, you would have to copy Hobies, which load up their rudders by moving the rigs aft. They do that by mast rake, because that boat also wasn't originally designed for this. The Tiki having a boomless main, you would need one with a higher clew.

You might want to reinforce the stern a little, and if you want to keep the shape as designed, take into account that the steering axis of your kick up rudders will be raked forward. Check the arc of your rudder blade tips when hitting the ground. If the tips arc down, they must lift the stern while kicking up. That would introduce vertical loads that your rudder fittings may not be designed for.

AYRS (Amateur Yacht Research Society) booklet #95, which you can download from Booklets – Amateur Yacht Research Society https://www.ayrs.org/booklets/, contains a report from a Tangaroa owner who put small endplates under the hulls. That would reduce leeway and may, if you get the shape right, improve the lift to drag ratio of the hulls, when going upwind. When there is little or no lateral load, you would have more drag.

Bernd Koehler has used that idea on some of his designs.

You could keep the Wharram rudders and make them more effective by adding an endplate. As above, to get the most from this you would have to load up the rudders more, and with skeg-hung rudders, that increases the load on the tiller.

In summary, you should be faster upwind and have less leeway if you use deeper rudders with better profile, and redistribute the lateral loads away from the hulls and onto those more efficient rudders. You may be able to improve the lift to drag ratio of the hulls a little as well. These would be the smallest design changes I can think of to improve upwind speed. You may lose some downwind speed.
Thank you Robert
Very helpful input.
Many years ago I actually experimented with anti vortex endplate on a full keel 5m Swedish sailboat, J10. The result seemed convincing, unfortunately the boat sank in a storm.
I think I will keep the rudder to plan, profiled as well as can be done, and look in to the end plate/profile idea.
 
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