a better tiki 21

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by guzzis3, May 7, 2019.

  1. guzzis3
    Joined: Nov 2009
    Posts: 458
    Likes: 25, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 42
    Location: Brisbane

    guzzis3 Senior Member

    I was wondering if anyone had had a go at designing a better tiki 21 style boat.

    I know about the RW acorn 21. Really nice boat. Look cheap and easy to build and from the youtube vids looks like a great performer.

    But I was wondering if anyone had had a go at a more Polynesian style small cabined cat ? Something with a bit of style..

    From what I can see of the T21:

    The plans are really expensive.

    For what should be a simple cheap boat it looks harder than it should be.

    More freeboard would be nice.

    You aren't going to get standing headroom but 4'6" full sitting would be nice.

    Some asymmetry for and aft might help the hobbyhorsing, even on a V hull.

    The looks could be improved.

    Any thoughts ?
     
  2. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 2,983
    Likes: 309, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    You've probably seen it, Wharram now also has the Mana 24, but only available as kits, no plans, and shipping kits around the world adds to the costs, plus you can't customise much to your ideas and preferences.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  3. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 2,983
    Likes: 309, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    For more elbow room in a small Tiki, place the hull sides panel edge stringers on the outside of the hull side bottom panels, and the hull side top panels on the outside of the stringers. Below applied on a Tiki 26, which also has raised cabin tops.

    Dutch links: Tiki 26 - Castor & PolluxBuildingPreparationVideos (click the pics)

    [​IMG]



    Below 3 pics from the preparation link:
    original
    [​IMG]

    adapted
    [​IMG]

    bulkhead, the red dash line is original, yellow is adapted.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  4. guzzis3
    Joined: Nov 2009
    Posts: 458
    Likes: 25, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 42
    Location: Brisbane

    guzzis3 Senior Member

    No I was thinking another designer might have had a go and done some serious improvements.

    T21 plans are 505 POUNDS! plus vat where applicable. Acorn plans are 175 pounds after Mr Woods recent price rise. The wharrams make very little information on their boats available for free and charge you like a wounded bull for everything.

    Tiki 21 design is 38 years old now. I would have thought someone somewhere might have taken the general idea and improved on it. The boat needs about another 6" of freeboard at least imo...

    Anyway thank you for the links. The mana looks like it's had some improvements over the Tiki21, but you really have to wonder at ketch rig on a 23' catamaran. And the prices! 8k pounds!!

    Anyway I was just musing.
     
  5. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 2,983
    Likes: 309, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    The hull length of the Mana 24 and her ketch rig is inspired on James' first Atlantic crossing in 1955-1956 in James' first built, a 23' 6" Wharram Tangaroa, which was a flat bottomed double canoe...




    Wharram philosophy on Freeboard and Windage.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  6. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 2,983
    Likes: 309, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Here's one that just came forward from the back of my mind...

    Mike WallerPlansCoral Sea 25 — 7.6 m (25') plywood 'V' hull cruising cat —

    [​IMG]
     
    bajansailor and Enter Miles like this.
  7. BlueBell
    Joined: May 2017
    Posts: 675
    Likes: 64, Points: 28
    Location: Victoria BC Canada

    BlueBell Ahhhhh...

    Recently, I've had opportunity to sail on a Malcolm Tenant Streaker 23.
    With an over height mast of 38' it went great, it has a ton of freeboard.
    It's an old design but what a great little cat!
     
  8. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 2,983
    Likes: 309, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    There's one for sale in the Netherlands...

    [​IMG]

    P.S. - a later ad has a lower asking price and shows 8 pics....

    — Malcolm Tennant Streaker 23 — DIY built in 1994 — L 7.2 m × B 4,0 (2,5) m × D 1,2 (0,3) m —
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  9. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
    Posts: 5,783
    Likes: 265, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1749
    Location: Tasmania,Australia

    rwatson Senior Member

  10. guzzis3
    Joined: Nov 2009
    Posts: 458
    Likes: 25, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 42
    Location: Brisbane

    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Thank you for the replies. I am aware of those other designs but they aren't what I am talking about.

    Boats like the coral sea 25 Ray Kendricks fish and chips and Richard Woods wizzer, eagle etc are VASTLY bigger boats. They weigh at least twice as much as a tiki 21.

    But the other issue is they are some of the others mentioned are conventional "modern" catamarans. Some have plumb bows, they all have flat transoms. Even the waller isn't a true V hull.

    I was thinking specifically about the tiki 21 and to a lesser extent the Tiki and Pahi 26. The boats are all straight stitch and glue. The 26's have extra panels to raise the freeboard, but they are all REALLY basic boats. V hulls, no boards.

    The tiki 21 should be a quick cheap boat to build but at just 18'6" on the water and 360 kg it's far too fussy. Acorn is the practical boat in that size. It's a beautiful design, weighs nothing, cheap plans, 1 single in each hull with adequate freeboard and headroom. It's a tiny boat but so is the tiki.

    What acorn lacks is the rakish looks. And with the tiki 21 being such a successful design I am quite surprised no one has had a hard look at it and devised a quicker cheaper way of making one and selling plans for same at half Wharram's price. Given the total build cost of a Tiki 21 paying 500 pounds for plans before you get started is ridiculous. And surely that cabin can be improved.

    As for the mana, just because JW did something 50 years ago doesn't make it a good idea then let alone now. 2 masts on a 23' boat is mad. And as I recall that origional tangaroa fell apart and they stopped and built rongo to continue sailing.

    I have no problem with a foam build but Derek Kelsall's plans are very expensive and his boats have modern lines. Personally I do not find all of them attractive but some are.

    Designing a flat panel canoe stern cat in stitch and glue or taping together some foam glass flat panels should in theory make a quick build and inherently include those "piratical lines" for a bit of fun. Build in enough freeboard, enough cabin, rake the cabin 5 degrees inboard so you can put your back against it comfortably, rather than dead vertical. Lay out the panels carefully so you can nest it with minimal waste. Make the bridgedeck maximum 8' wide to give it a tad more beam and use as much of a full ply sheet as possible. Eliminate parts and fiddly details. Push maximum beam aft a tad to combat hobbyhorsing.

    Mind I have not seen tiki 21 plans. I had a set of tiki 30 plans and was properly appalled at the wasted material and labour. I also had taneui foam plans and again the method was crude, but those were drawn a long time ago. Maybe the t21 is better but from what I've seen I think there is a lot of room for improvement.

    Anyway...
     
  11. Rumars
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 222
    Likes: 41, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 39
    Location: Germany

    Rumars Senior Member

    I don't think you can find a better 21 cat that also looks like a tiki. The tiki's looks come from the deep V, symetrical, S&G build. That's about the maximum boat you can achieve with that technique. Moving beam aft and increasing freeboard will prove difficult if not impossible. Most designers don't bother with that form anymore. It's simpler to add a chine or two and enjoy the resulting design freedom. For the builder an extra chine is just an extra cut and fillet, and the panels become more easy to handle.
    I think if you want a "better" tiki 21 you need a custom design. Either as a deep V or as a multichine boat with the desired look.
     
  12. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 2,983
    Likes: 309, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Many Wharram plans have daggerboards designed on them, including the Tiki 26, but only a few builders built that option.

    Below a quote from the comments below the video in post #3.
    Here's a Pahi 42 that has the far forward daggerboards built in...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
    rwatson likes this.
  13. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 2,983
    Likes: 309, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    They built that 23½' cat in 1955 for a total build budget of GB £ 200 (US$Oz$€uro), so in my opinion it adds to their design and built capabilities that they could built it as such within that budget, and in such a quality that it could sail offshore for a 1.000 nautical miles before leaving, and then make a successful Atlantic crossing with it, starting from the UK. It also pleas for their wisdom not to return with it, but to build a new one instead, that incorporated the gained experiences in the new design.

    About the Tangaroa 60th anniversary Mana 24, only the hull length is based on the Tangaroa of 64 years ago, the Cat Ketch Rig is as the rest of the boat totally different from its inspiration, and it does make sense to me to have a mizzen on that boat, since the cat rig doesn't have a jib, and so the whole boat concept looks slick and practical to me . . :)

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
    ALL AT SEA likes this.
  14. redreuben
    Joined: Jan 2009
    Posts: 1,658
    Likes: 68, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 349
    Location: Beaconsfield Western Australia

    redreuben redreuben

    I've also looked at the idea of updating the Tiki but really it's a bit like competing with Guinness, they both totally own their segment.

    Working with the original plans I would go with squaring the transom and deepening the forefoot first.
    And then maybe more beam, more freeboard, a slightly taller rig, daggerboards, bigger fixed mast beam like Woods to define and protect the cockpit.
    So then its not really a Tiki anymore.
    Richard Woods Surfsong and Windsong are the obvious step up in this direction.

    When you look at this boat by Selway Fisher the Cat 254 you can see the potential for creating more curve in the sides by torturing the ply a bit, lol, or a lot ! Large Catamarans http://www.selway-fisher.com/YachtCats.htm

    One boat that caught my eye with an equally "salty" traditional look is the Evergreen, at 19ft it wouldn't take much to stretch it to 21. I'd lose the biplane rig though and the Tiki's Wingsail would probably suit it well. Unfortunately like most of Michael Schact's design work it never made it past vapourware. I contacted Laurie McGowan several years ago and it isn't going to be drawn up.
    https://proafile.com/multihull-boats/article/evergreen-a-fast-expedition-catamaran.
    Woods uses this hull shape on Meander, Rhea and Ondina which are much bigger boats.

    Just a comment on Kelsall, he had a great portfolio of designs (especially the Tonga 24 ?) but when he went to his KSS infusion builds most of them fell by the wayside and they are beyond expensive the pricing could only be described as ridiculous given that you can buy a Kendrick design for A$150 or even $100 with the monthly special.

    Jones boats are also worth a look although not sure of the availability since his passing. He started with Wharram type hulls and his boats did some serious offshore miles.
    Jones Boats Homepage http://jonesboatstuckahoe.com His books are a great read.

    My 2c worth. :)
     

  15. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
    Posts: 5,783
    Likes: 265, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1749
    Location: Tasmania,Australia

    rwatson Senior Member

    Lets really get into the barebones spirit of small multihulls.

    "The fabulous and unique first Atlantic crossing , 3000 nautical miles WITH NO NAVIGATION INSTRUMENTS on a 600 pds wooden outrigger ! a lot better than hokulea, No compass, no watch, no GPS or Sextant, no log, no radio, no receiver, no chart and not one book..."

     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.