34th America's Cup: multihulls!

[CT 249]

Personally I'd just like to see the choice of AC boat have a logical basis. For example, what testing has been done to see whether new viewers want to see boats like the AC 72s or whether they want to see boats like the Js, Dogzilla or even an IACC boat or 12. To some it may seem obvious that the faster high-tech boats would be the new viewer's favourite but where's the evidence? Would more new viewers watch AC72s sailing because they are interested in the speed, or would more new viewers watch J Class sailing because they find huge classic boats to be classically beautiful? The info that was released about the genesis of the AC72s suggested that there wasn't market research of this type done.

A very unscientific measure of what boats people like to look at could possibly come from looking at the top suggestions when we type in things like "sailboat picture" to Google images. The top suggestions are classic boats, not high speed ones. Even typing in "catamaran picture" brings up mainly pics of cruising cats near beaches, not G Class blasting around the world.

Obviously there could be a difference between what people like to look at in a poster or pic, and what people may like to watch while racing. But surely before major decisions are made on the basis that "more people will want to watch type X" then there should have been some significant market research?

I know from years in the media that the pics that a sailor prefers can be very different to those that an art director will choose, and if decisions about putting a pic of the AC on the front page of the newspaper or in a lead story on the TV news are made in the same way then selecting a boat that has the right aesthetic appeal may make a very big difference to the amount of publicity the AC gets.

And let's not get into the issues of what type will follow in the AC spirit and tradition (if one thinks that is important) or provide valuable innovation and trickle down to the rest of the sport (if one thinks that is important).

 

[petereng]

The original rules had requirements for a small rig and a big rig. After a little experience with the AC45's the teams decided to forgo the small rig to reduce costs and make logistics easier. Peter

 

[Richard Woods]

In 1986 I wrote an article called "Multihulls in the Year 2000". In it I said this

"What if France wins the Americas Cup and changes the deed of gift so that racing is in 12m multihulls (i.e. Formula 40) instead of monohulls? "

you can see it in full here

http://sailingcatamarans.com/index....6-multihulls-in-the-year-2000-written-in-1986

I made the point about the "little boats" (12m) in an earlier post because I agree that the AC45's would probably do a better job than the AC72's as far as the racing is concerned.

Didn't the AC45's add a topmast to their rigs?

I wrote what I did because at the end of the day the AC is a match race.

Personally, in these days of 2 boat teams, I think a 2-boat team race (last boat loses) would be more interesting and challenging to the sailors. But then I have always preferred team races to match races (and yes I have done both)

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

[petereng]

CT 249 - The choice of boat is logical, it is agreed to by the Defender and the Challenger. If they can't agree the Deed of Gift is used to define the boat. In any DOG event you would be crazy to pick a monohull as history has shown. Although TV etc has come into the discussion the AC will always be between very wealthy individuals for the Glory of the Cup. It may not be how the originators of the Deed intended but thats the end result. Peter

 

[petereng]

Hi Richard - An AC boat by the Deed has to have a minimum length of 44ft so a 10m (39.4ft) boat can't be an AC boat. Again I say that the rules and the boats are agree'd to by the Challenger and the Defender, so anything is possible at that point of the Challenge. Peter

 

[CT 249]

CT 249 - The choice of boat is logical, it is agreed to by the Defender and the Challenger. If they can't agree the Deed of Gift is used to define the boat. In any DOG event you would be crazy to pick a monohull as history has shown. Although TV etc has come into the discussion the AC will always be between very wealthy individuals for the Glory of the Cup. It may not be how the originators of the Deed intended but thats the end result. Peter

The fact that a hip-pocket challenger agreed with the defender does not, per se, make all the claims used to support their choice logical, does it?

The issue is that it seems that there seems to have been little good research to back up the reasons that Coutts etc used to justify their choice of the AC72s. They didn't just say "this is what we have agreed to race under MC", they said the AC72s would "reconnect the America's Cup with young sailors and encourage a new larger audience to turn on and tune in" and the new format would be cheape and "create exposure and commercial sustainability for teams and their sponsors". They also said that the new class could race in winds of up to 33 knots to ensure that races could go ahead as scheduled.

Have those things happened? It doesn't seem so. If not, isn't it reasonable to query the research that underlay the claims? I know they did some research but it does not seem to have been released and certainly does not seem to have been very good as far as predicting what has happened. That's no surprise, the IACC boats didn't turn out as they were expected to either.

I agree the AC will probably essentially be about wealthy individuals, but the current ideal seems to be trying to be something quite different.

 

[petereng]

This is really not about logic, its about chasing a piece of silver. Coutts and Cayard spent alot of time and effort on a project called the World League of sailing. The boat was called the WLS70 and was a 70 ft trimaran. This happened in the period after the 33rd AC. The WSL concept blended into the AC45 and then the AC72. I'm quite certian that the AC72 will be good at 33knots after its teething problems are done with. I'm certian that ETNZ would sail very well in these conditions as long as they have enough room and time to sail it out. If you read the spectator statistics published about "stadium racing" its all good. The Extreme 40 series is going gangbusters and the AC45 if it goes on will do very well too. Trying to capture americans into sailing is a big ask. There are more registered sailors in Australia then in the USA and we have a 22 million population. There are more in NZ then in Oz as well! I think its something like 66000. Plus Oracle and Prada and Artemis have a very good ratio of Oz and NZ sailors in them. We should win the AC by sailor default (harking back to nationality rules). If you are involved with sailing at a commercial level you should be happy with the AC as any money spent at top levels does filter down through the system eventually. The mere fact we are talking means that it means something! Cheers Peter S

 

[oldsailor7]

I think we are discussing efficiency, which in engineering terms, means getting the most out--for the least in.
In sailing this all revolves around Stability.
In a ballasted keelboat max stability occurs when the boat is lying on its side, except in canting keelers, when the keel is canted directly out sideways.
The ballast has to be carried and moving it around requires energy, (Newton, F=MA). The energy comes from the wind in the sails. That energy is best used for producing propulsion, not acceleration and deceleration of a mass of ballast.
The ballast has to be supported. That means displacement of water. Big weight means big displacement. IE:- Fat hulls. Fat hulls have bad waterline L/D ratios. Your average mono has an L/D of 5 to 7 and thus has a bad wave making pattern. It sits in the hollow of it's own bow wave without enough sail power to climb out. It's referred to as its limiting hull speed. Long slim multihull hulls, L/D 8 to 15, make little or no bow waves and so are not limited. Above 15 hulls are getting into the region of diminishing returns, where excess wetted surface starts to increase drag unless boats are very light. IE:- The Tornado at 20/1 L/D. Super light but for racing only.
And how about leaning.
To make effective use of its keel a mono has to Heel. When it heels the rig is no longer vertical, and the sails have a downward component of the sail force.This not only reduces the amount of horizontal sail force available for thrust, but effectively increases the weight of the boat, thus increasing drag still more.
And how about the Ladies. Take a girl or your wife aboard a multi and you have a friend for life. Some guys can't see why girls are not too keen on walking on the inside walls of the hull when out on a nice spanking sailing day.

AH!!! Now you say. Multihulls CAPSIZE.

Yes they do. But in most cases they float and can save their crew. Monos, unless they are tightly buttoned up, can fill with water and sink.
Very convenient.
How many Monos have simply disappeared at sea? The media love nothing better than a great picture of a capsized Multi. "Look at that dangerous catamaran, It's upside down." Yes, but it is still floating and can help it's crew to survive.
And what about the mono crews in a race. Eleven big strong winch crankers with their legs hanging over the windward gunnel, cold and wet, when they coud be sitting warm and dry in a comfortable cockpit. Not having to jump up and dive over the cabin top during a wild jibe and risking having their head smacked by the boom,----- when on a Multi you simply centre the outhaul as you jibe, then ease it out without a dirty great lurch.
I could think of another half dozen reasons why a multihull is much more efficient than a mono, but I really don't want to bore you. IMHO the AC should be sailed by the most efficient sailboats possible.

 

[petereng]

Hi Richard - In 1876 a journalist wrote about Hereschoffs Ameryllis the same thing. What if someone builds a catamaran and wins the Americas Cup? So we should be saying whats next? Its about speed, so whats next? We are limited foiling by cavitation, we can only go so fast and then the foils cavitate. We have rules not allowing movable trimming devices which means the boats are hard to control. We go faster and faster but do not allow the sailors devices that improve control so driver control accidents do not happen as much. Foiling has been played with a lot in powered boats and has died out due to operational limitations. I expect this to happen to sailing foilers as well. As 40kn foilers become normal, what will normal 50 & 60kn sailing boats look like? They probably won't be foilers they probably will be skimmers with suspensions ... only way to solve the dynamic stability problems unless we allow the use of electronuic controls. Thats a big question when does a sailor become an operator rather than an athlete? Do we build sail boats that we drive like cars? are we sailing then or operating? The car racing industry went through this conversation many years ago. The future is tricky but interesting.. Peter

 

[Gary Baigent]

Petereng and OS7, do you know what you're saying?
That "brave new world" information stuff will terrify/enrage/panic/create conniption fits/denial/much shouting and gesticulation and ... much fear amongst the hater/watchers.
Looking ahead (after the Kiwis take the cup) - a more open AC - in 60-65 footers, foilers, cats, trimarans or the unmentionable proas, maybe even a weird monohull configuration, a box rule, say 65x65 ... and go for it. Now that would really create trickle down. You heard it here first.
Cheers.

 

[CT 249]

Gary, do you know how to construct a post that discusses issues instead of simply slagging off other forum members?

 

[Gary Baigent]

No, no, never, never CT - but I'm being serious about the Brave New Rule. Think about it. Almost utopian, also democratic. And what a spectacle.

 

[CT 249]

Peter, I know the background about the Coutts WLS and the Extreme and AC45 series, but in what way is their success (as far as they are successful; I thought that the X40s were not doing all that well commercially???) proof that the AC72s are the right class for the AC? The entry numbers, sponsorship etc for the big boats all seem to be well down on the forecasts, which just seems to underline that the forecasts were not soundly based.

Trying to capture Americans into sailing may well be a big ask and may not be what some think the AC is about, but if that is the task then where is the evidence that the current boats are the best tools for the job? When the biggest ever survey of potential American sailors said that the problem with the perception of sailing was that the sport was viewed as elitist and innaccessible, NOT that it was boring or slow, then where is the evidence that the AC72s will capture Americans into sailing? Again, there seems to me to be no evidence of any connection between what the AC may claim to be trying to do, and whether the current version is a good way to do that.

Yachting Australia claims to represent 60,000 sailors. US PHRF has about 17,000 boats and the average boat has about 6 crew per day. That means that one US group alone has more sailors than all of Oz sailing.

Having formerly worked in the industry, I don't believe in the trickle down theory because the Laser/Sunfish/North survey I referred to earlier, like the recent YA survey, showed that sailing's popularity issues stem from its perception as elitist, difficult and inacessible (people do NOT think it's boring) and showing the AC72s may just make that seem more so. This issue is exactly what I am talking about when I say that there seems to be a lack of research and logic - some people say that the performance and technology of the AC72s will promote the sport when the two biggest surveys ever done in the area indicate that they could give exactly the wrong impression to non sailors.

Windsurfing went down a similar road from 1983. When it took that road it was the fastest growing watersport in the world, within a few years it was the fastest shrinking watersport. I don't want boats to go that way. Growth sports include acessible ones like SUPs, road bicycles and dragon boating. While the AC obviously has a particular niche, there seems to be little reason to celebrate if it puts more emphasis on the factors that push people away from sailing.

 

[petereng]

CT249 - In the first instance the choice of an AC boat is between two parties so its logical between those parties... In the second instance the whole AC thing is illogical... why spend a signicicant amount of money to acquire something (the old mug) you can't own? I agree that sailing is percheived as elitist etc and we really have no control over that, all studies and a short investigation using Google trends will show that sailing as a sport is declining (perhaps dying) and there is no answer to that yet. I just think that the money discussion and the rules discussion is moot. The AC is what it is and that has to be accepted. The AC rules were written at a time when disputes were settled by duels and if you read the Deed it reads exactly like a duel challenge. Pick your weapon, your place and time and an umpire and lets boogie. Winner takes whatever. May it go like that forever. "Sailing" as a sport is a big conversation and perhaps sailing as a sport will fade away but stay on as a recreation?? But I'm sure that fast sailing will continue and I'm interested in discussing what does fast sailing look like? The fast monohull is now gone. Its like Bugatti saying that you can't race a car with brakes on the front wheels. Multis will always beat monos, foilers will beat non foilers etc. Be happy we live in a time when the AC finally broke the mono tradition which means the industry may get the shot in the arm it needs. I'll stop commenting now, lets change the subject. Cheers Peter S

 

[CT 249]

Oldsailor, why define "efficiency" in that way?

You may get the most out for the least in by sitting on the couch watching a DVD of a sunset rather than burning kilojoules and time walking to the window. You get the most for the least by catching a bus instead of going for a bike ride or a hike. You probably get the most for the least by eating gruel instead of a spectacular meal with fine wine.

Sailing is about having fun however you enjoy it, surely, and therefore an efficient boat is one that is fun. If it's all about staying warm and dry just buy a motorboat or stay securely moored.

Yes, you can get wet and cold on a mono's rail. I get wetter and colder on a mate's tri (lots of splashing through the nets) and found Wahoo had a much less comfortable deck layout. But if people don't mind those issues with their multis then who would be so arrogant as to tell them it's not efficient or that they are not having fun?

In engineering terms, a windsurfer or foiling Moth would probably be much more efficient than a cat - does that make the multis less efficient in terms of creating joy? Of course not, so why is a mono less efficient by the same measure?