Main-less rig

[Manie B]

Spiv thanks a million for the post

they fitted a furling sail behind their masts.

promoters of parallel headsails for their greater efficiency

this is exactly what I am going to do with my micro
its VERY encouraging to read that other boats have done this AND they are HAPPY with the setup
whenever I had to explain my rig to folks they always gave me the cold shoulder = it wont work?

Jeeez it was nice to see the pics you posted
once again many many thanks
you made my day

 

[Pericles]

Travel broadens an active mind.

It is possible to journey almost anywhere with the Internet. Earlier this morning, I was travelling along the border between Spain & France, which is by no means a straight line and discovered Llivia, a 2000 year old anomaly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llivia

That led me to Latour-de-Carol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latour-de-Carol

From there to the Yellow Train.

http://www.countrycousins.co.uk/yelltren.htm

Ending at Irun where the SNCF 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in) Standard gauge rails meet the 1,668 mm (5 ft 55⁄6 in) broad gauge RENFE tracks.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=iru...ent=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl

There is a small patch of land in the Bidasoa river that has been a meeting place of monarchs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheasant_Island

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...2845,-1.765366&spn=0.001802,0.005364&t=k&om=1

As you already know, I've even been to Fethiye this morning.

 

[oldsailor7]

John Hitches big catamaran has a single aft mast and three forestays, which enables a foresail on each. No mainsail. A variety of sail mixes is thus available. Narrow sheeting angles and flat cut sails enable good windward performance.

 

[Spiv]

Stefano,

I am looking at photographs of Fethiye on Google maps. What puzzles me is the plethora of crosstrees. They look like there are fleets of squareriggers in port. /quote]
Those are Turkish Gulets.
They are from about 15m to 25m and more. Most are just charter day boats, that carry thousand of tourists to little coves for lunch and blast pop music from large loudspeakers, a real pain till they leave and the peace returns.

However some are very well finished and would rival any western boat.
I visited one with 8 queen size cabins, all with luxurious en-suites, dvd player etc.
The black one below was just a megayacht.
However all these (from Marmaris) had more or less conventional sailing rigs, even though they seem to always motor as the wind here is very light.

The ones from Fethiye, on the other hand had the furling mainsails.

 

[TeddyDiver]

But.. isn't the main allways the biggest sail on the highest mast so the mainless rig is actually on a motorboat

 

[brian eiland]

Mainless??

What do you think, could we call this rig mainless...it certainly does't have what might be termed a mainsail in any conventional manner.

In fact I would say it derives the bigger portion of its drive from the sail in the front...the headsail



...more here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/mastfoil-opinions-40487.html

 

[Yobarnacle]

subscribing

 

[brian eiland]

Ideal sail plan for 49' performance cat

...from a discussion over on this forum:
http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2475

Here are my considerations:
1- Head sail: Due to the restriction imposed by the shrouds which are not very forward, when off the wind (hopefully most time in the tropics) the main sail will be pretty useless except for the roach. The driving force will be mostly from the head sail. That's the reason I don't want a self tacking jib that seems so popular on cats. Also I don't like the sheet angle on self tackers. Pls correct me if I am wrong.

Reply from owner of Catana 471:
You are definitely not wrong, IMHO. And my shrouds are also swept aft quite a bit. When deep off the wind I prefer to use headsails without the main. I have three to choose from, a big genoa (60 m2), a big Code 0 (1700 ft2), and a big sym spi (150 m2). Last fall on an 8 day passage from Ches Bay to Tortola we didn't raise the main for the first 6 days. It was all DDW 15 to 30 in big surfing seas. We used all three headsails as the wind speed varied. Very comfortable and easy on the boat and crew. Could we have gone faster using the main? Of course. But we weren't racing and wanted and preferred comfort and less work vs top speed. We still managed ~160 nm/day for the passage, even including the last 2 slow days. We arrived rested and without anything broken.

 

[Silver Raven]

What do you think, could we call this rig mainless...it certainly does't have what might be termed a mainsail in any conventional manner.

In fact I would say it derives the bigger portion of its drive from the sail in the front...the headsail

View attachment 65012

...more here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/mastfoil-opinions-40487.html

Gooday Brian. What would I call it - - well why not start with the truth & what it is instead of trying to prove a case for something that is something else.

Let's try - a one off.
A very limited - wind speed usage - flat sheltered water 2 person catamaran.
Not ealily reefable without loosing a big % of forward drive & performance.
A large 'fornt-sail' with a 2-part wing-type mast as a main & main-spar.
Very 'nice' rig but what does one do in a big sea-way, in the real ocean ??
What does anyone do when you have to reef it in 30 plus kts & still be in control ???
What is it - a great but very limited very wet day sailing catamaran with very limited apeal & not wide use. I M H O - of course.
I'd take my normal fast standard rig off my cat & put that one on to go 25% slower - well I don't think so. As much as it may have something going for it one is not value for money for controlled quick sailing - again I M H O

Enjoy the concept but can't see the value. ciao, james.

 

[TeddyDiver]

What do you think, could we call this rig mainless...

A cat boat having a jib main (or stay main whatever)..
Anyway a boat with a single sail has only one sail so there's no need to name it me thinks..

 

[Spiv]

You are definitely not wrong, IMHO. And my shrouds are also swept aft quite a bit. When deep off the wind I prefer to use headsails without the main. I have three to choose from, a big genoa (60 m2), a big Code 0 (1700 ft2), and a big sym spi (150 m2). Last fall on an 8 day passage from Ches Bay to Tortola we didn't raise the main for the first 6 days. It was all DDW 15 to 30 in big surfing seas. We used all three headsails as the wind speed varied. Very comfortable and easy on the boat and crew. Could we have gone faster using the main? Of course. But we weren't racing and wanted and preferred comfort and less work vs top speed. We still managed ~160 nm/day for the passage, even including the last 2 slow days. We arrived rested and without anything broken.

Hi Brian,
thank you for keeping this thread alive.

Like the owner of the Catana 471 quoted above I use headsails as much as possible.

After two years of owning my Salina and 6 months of full time liveaboard, my dislike for my square top, fully battened 'you beaut' mainsails has steadily grown, here are the reasons:

1. it takes 4 strong people to fully hoist it by hand.
2. on my own I can only lift 1/3, then it is a winch job.
3. I need to go head-to or close to headwind for the whole operation, often in the wrong direction.
4. in light winds or DDW I have to use a preventer and shift it at any tack/jybe.
5. I have to contend with the battens getting stuck in the lazy jacks
6. the boom lift line too tight if close hauled,
7. the shrouds cutting into the main on broad reaches
8. the boom shading my solar panels, especially at anchor.
9. and my pet hate is taking reefs.

I could think of more, but lets say that my Genoa is a charm to unfurl on my own, in any directions and any windspeed, I keep it up to 30kn, then I furl it a bit, it works from 35 to 180 degrees and never tries to bash me or push me overboard.

The best thing is that I don't think twice if I want to furl or unfurl it in the middle of the night when my wife is asleep...... I love it.


So, my plan is to sell the main and the boom and put a big furling 'main'?? behind the mast, like some of those Turkish Goulets I mentioned before, then I will not be afraid of having two sail up in the middle of a dark night....


Now, I can hear the armchair sailors and the racing fans say "you'r mad, you'll loose so many knots" etc etc, well, that statement is still to be proven, I have records of my boat performances and will put it to the test.
However, for all the reasons above "I don't care!"

 

[brian eiland]

....
After two years of owning my Salina and 6 months of full time liveaboard, my dislike for my square top, fully battened 'you beaut' mainsails has steadily grown, here are the reasons:.....

Now, I can hear the armchair sailors and the racing fans say "you'r mad, you'll loose so many knots" etc etc, well, that statement is still to be proven, I have records of my boat performances and will put it to the test.

From an 'out there doing it' cruiser's mouth. Thanks Stefano

 

[brian eiland]

Gooday Brian. What would I call it - - well why not start with the truth & what it is instead of trying to prove a case for something that is something else.

Let's try - a one off.
A very limited - wind speed usage - flat sheltered water 2 person catamaran.
Not ealily reefable without loosing a big % of forward drive & performance.
A large 'fornt-sail' with a 2-part wing-type mast as a main & main-spar.
Very 'nice' rig but what does one do in a big sea-way, in the real ocean ??
What does anyone do when you have to reef it in 30 plus kts & still be in control ???
What is it - a great but very limited very wet day sailing catamaran with very limited apeal & not wide use. I M H O - of course.
I'd take my normal fast standard rig off my cat & put that one on to go 25% slower - well I don't think so. As much as it may have something going for it one is not value for money for controlled quick sailing - again I M H O

Enjoy the concept but can't see the value. ciao, james.

I agree with some of your contentions that this may not be a 'real-life cruising rig'.

This vessel I pictured was a small 'proof-of-concept' trial for the development of Chris White's new MastFoil concept. I have to applaud Chris for advancing so bold a concept.

I was simply making the observation that it lacked the conventional full-battened mainsail....and that seemed very appropriate in the 'mainless' subject thread.

If i were a bit younger and had access to a small shop I would be rerigging a Lighting class boat with my aftmast rig as a proof of concept to go out an sail against a stock boat.

 

[brian eiland]

A-frame Rig, movable tack locations

Hi everyone,
I mentioned a few times that I was working on a new(ish) design for a cruising rig, a rig that I though off since I built a 12.5m cat in 2002.
Basically my cat cannot be sailed with the main only; now, I know that others can, however this is not the only point, what got me thinking is:

So, my first thought lead me towards an “A” frame mast with a furler in the middle for the main and one or two up front for the jib and the screecher....

BTW, Spiv I'm sure you've seen this interesting vessel/discussion??
I posted it here under the Wishbone Sailing Rig discussion, and the owner of the vessel contributed lots of interesting discussions subsequently.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/wishbone-sailing-rig-1999-12.html#post485560

You can also visit his website
Catbird Suite

 

[Silver Raven]

I agree with some of your contentions that this may not be a 'real-life cruising rig'.

This vessel I pictured was a small 'proof-of-concept' trial for the development of Chris White's new MastFoil concept. I have to applaud Chris for advancing so bold a concept.

I was simply making the observation that it lacked the conventional full-battened mainsail....and that seemed very appropriate in the 'mainless' subject thread.

If i were a bit younger and had access to a small shop I would be rerigging a Lighting class boat with my aftmast rig as a proof of concept to go out an sail against a stock boat.

Gooday Brian. I'm pleased that you seem to understand that I was not being a negative outlook person, which I was not trying to be - in any way.

You are not alone in "a bit younger & had access to a small shop" ect. I'd wager I'm a tad older than you - however I'm short all the money that would be required to 'prove' any concept by doing the required cross-research & even then a large percentage of people would never believe the results in any case - I sure. Life is like that.

The 'Lightning' you mention - is that the 'Lightning' monohull skiff that was popular in North America back as far as the 50's & 60's. A 19' trailerable - hard chine small skiff designed by Sparkman & Stephens. The sail boat that fits somewhere between - the Comet class & a Star class. I used to sail those 3 plus a few others (Snipe & up to the Raven class) in Vancouver, B.C back in the 50's & they were great little boats. I went on to build boats in B.C. before moving to OZ where I continued to build boats - sail, race & cruise them - which I hope to go back to doing very soon. I've been involved in designing - building - racing & sailing for fun - - 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D' class cats & ocean racing & cruising multihulls up to 58' & some with successful wing masts. Oh & a few monohulls & some - Sydney to Hobart - Sydney to Brisbane - Brisbane to Gladstone races etc etc & lots of cruising in the tropical waters of Queensland & the Northern Teritory.

The reasons for my interest in anything to do with new rigs - is my total interest in sailing as a way of life, hobby & a fun thing to do.

My concern about 'aft-rigs' or 'alternative-rigs' is the cost/efficiency figures which needs to be linked to value/ability/performance in some manner - for safety reasons more than just speed. I M H O

I'm looking at sailing throughout SE Asia as soon as I can get up there & get the "toy" ready to sail - so anything I look at needs to be ocean capable. Great sailing area as a whole however not without some extreme challenges in regards to weather, navigation difficulties & remote-area situations that require a very efficient sailing vessel, again I M H O .

Thanks for you reply - ciao, james