Affordable seaworthy cruiser

[goodwilltoall]

Teddy diver,

Used marconi sails are rated by how much use they have left in them. Some have 30%, some 90%, and some are almost new. What they all have in common is they are much cheaper than getting a new set made. Look up used sails and you will find huge inventories of triangular sails, when it comes to used gaff sails theres maybe 1 for every 500 marconis.

 

[TeddyDiver]

when it comes to used gaff sails theres maybe 1 for every 500 marconis.

They might be still in one piece but that doesn't make them good, and if you really want to save some money you can allways cut the head of the sail away and.. you have a gaff sail and a free jib

 

[Pierre R]

Pierre,

Understand that increasing static stability does not enhance ride, never rejected that. That is why long length is needed so that static stability can be reduced, and have to go back again to mentioning that long length is not considered often with modern boat design.

When the modern 35' fat hulled design is compared at bottom waterplane, more pounding will be likely to result. They are not completely flat but deadrise is not that great either as some of the broad sterned euroboats show. With modern BWL say 10'-8" compared to jubilee 8'-4" BWL that has to account for more uncomfortable ride especially when overall length of 50'-0" compared to 35'-0" is considered.

Hate to keep beating this around, but long length and narrow beam is proven to offer a better ride.

You still cling to the idea that length to width alone is a magic number that gives better ride and ultimate stability. I hate to keep beating the around but, ONLY IF YOU DESIGN IN RIDE AND STABILITY DO YOU ACHIEVE SUCH. There is no magic length to beam ratio that works. You have not designed in a good comfortable ride on yours so you are unlikely to achieve such. Its that simple.

50' is not really long enough to achieve a good sea boat in the 6:1 length to beam ratio and shallow draft. Can you achieve a boat that works? Yes, suitable for protected waters. Can you achieve one that you could survive on in normal conditions of 20-30 knots of wind at sea for several hours? VERY UNLIKELY.

You don't seem to have any concept of how frightening and dangerous it would be to be on your boat at sea in 20-30 knots of blow. Especially without a keel for tracking. It seems like there are two camps in these forums. Those that have had their asses handed to them by the sea and those who have yet to experience that. The former always puts ride and comfort ahead of efficiency and cost while the later never seem to quite accept the fact that the sea takes all ties.

 

[goodwilltoall]

Pierre,

You make a good point again. A long, passive box keel would be a definite enhancement to seaworthiness. Perhaps with enough sea room it would still be safe. There was a concern that the leeboards could begin to swing wildly in rough waters and possibly they would not offer enough leeway resistance, not sure if that assumption it totally correct.

With regards to long length, that is one of the factors put into the design to help with motion. Answer this question: With all things being equal in regards to dispacement, hull shape, volume, and SA/D would not the longer boat be more seakindly? This type of test can be done and has been done, so saying "your comparing apples to oranges" does not stand.

 

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by goodwilltoall before draft will also be between 13" and 16".

Originally Posted by goodwilltoall
I'm attached to is keeping the proportions of 50'-0" length, 8'-4" beam, and 5'-0" hull draft.

Originally Posted by goodwilltoall
Rocker as shown per drawings is about 19 inches which would equate to about 3/4" per foot.

Now I hope that you can return to the reality of a dropped keel with ballast ,
or present specs on stability and roll rate. A sail plan would also help.

 

[Pierre R]

Answer this question: With all things being equal in regards to dispacement, hull shape, volume, and SA/D would not the longer boat be more seakindly?

Longer boats do tend to be more seakindly but the real question seems to be "Do YOU know why?" I appears to me that you do not.

 

[goodwilltoall]

Teddy Diver,

The sails can be purchased in good condition, other sailors are upgrading all the time to extract a few extra seconds of performance or coastal cruisers feel that 100% performance has to be there rather than accepting 95%. These are not problems sailors in the trades worry about or those just wanting to be on the waters for extended times. So sails of that quality will be acceptable and if in the future better pointing is desired new sails can be bought.

The used sails are a start into getting going affordably, other cruisers sail with used sails satisfactorly, no reason to overlook this option.

 

[goodwilltoall]

Frank,

You found a mistake, hull draft is not 5'-0", correctly stated that would be the hull height.

Rocker height of 19" is correct, that is not refering to draft. Look at the ends you will see them above the waterline.

The sailplan is causing the most problems, would like help in what you guys would think would be a good one. My idea would be a ketch using the tartan 27 rig. The luff is 30.5' x 13.5' foot with total sail area of 207sf, with both masts that would be 414sf. The jib say 30.5' x 12.0' for 183sf., all total 597sf. Mast height 37.5' above waterline. Small sail area, definitely could be bigger but dont know how to achieve this.

 

[goodwilltoall]

BTW,

You guys made a good point with the keel, although still not absolutely convincing. Jubilee will have good tracking, again that is due to length if a keel is put on this might make it excessively hard to turn. Secondly the hard chine itself provides some leeway resistance, much better than if rounded. Thirdly, if lying to hull and all sails down except a storm sail in the rear mast, the boat will face directly into the wind, this again is due to length, it will do this much more reliably than a shorter boat.

Boat design program is not available, cant do roll rates and stability calculations. Reason why observation of other boats is important to decisions.

 

[wardd]

I've made some calculations and if the boat were long enough it would be impossible to capsize

 

[SamSam]

I've made some calculations and if the boat were long enough it would be impossible to capsize

Does this have something to do with the curvature of the earth?

 

[wardd]

Does this have something to do with the curvature of the earth?

kinda, we just have to figure out how to make a banana shaped boat

 

[Pierre R]

I give up again today.

 

[kerosene]

BTW,

You guys made a good point with the keel, although still not absolutely convincing. Jubilee will have good tracking, again that is due to length if a keel is put on this might make it excessively hard to turn. .

This is a prime example of why people are getting frustrated with you and poke fun of your project. You make claims like that in itself would make things true - at the same time people whose critique you choose to ignore have substantial experience.

"Jubilee will have good tracking" - oh really and how so. You have extremely low draft, only leeboard/drop keel in the center on a long light boat. What do you think a wave hitting side ways to the bow does? could it maybe spin the boat around the short keel?

You take simplified truths and extrapolate them based on your needs. Yes hard chine has better leeway resistance than round but how significant is this? likewise - Yes directing cooler air to a car's intake will raise the horse power potential. Does that give my wife's corolla supreme performance? NO. You take bits of information that themselves might be correct but when the context or magnitude in suggested application is totally wrong its useless drivel.

You take partial truths and STATE how they make something possible - even when the ones with experience try to guide you to knowledge.

if you ignore and don't respond to most of my post please answer to these 3 questions:
-how many hours have you sailed? (preferably as a skipper) and on what kind of boats?
-what is the longest time you have spent in a boat? both live aboard and passagemaking?
-have you ever owned a boat over 1000 lbs?

 

[frank smith]

I dont think it will be strong enough. Is a box girder the best way to go?
Is it worthit to have to make it heavier than another form? is it really that much
easier to build or cheaper? I dont think so ,and besides there are boats out thier that you can buy for no much more.