Trailerable and seaworthy... trying to find a compromise

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Foxwedge, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Foxwedge
    Joined: Sep 2019
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    Location: Toronto

    Foxwedge Junior Member

    I realize these don't often go well together....
    I'm trying to find my perfect compromise, and looking for advice on finding or building the right thing. I realize this has been discussed before, and I have read much of it. Please humour me.


    Ok so here's the brief:
    1) launchable by trailer singlehandedly (so 4000 lbs displacement, top-end?)
    2) fast and easy rigging by one person
    3) comfortable single-handing
    3) Cruising amenities for 2 (20'-26' long, bigger is better if I can launch it alone)
    4) as comfortable as possible in rough or open water (great lakes, or coastal cruising)
    5) not too much $$

    Production boat suggestions are great, but they all seem to be sloop rigged. Macgregor 25/26 will take over an hour at the ramp to get ready, and that seems to be the norm. My CL 16 even is a real pain. In general, I like the sound of the cat-ketch a la B&B. seems to make sense for speed and ease at the ramp. Folks say 10 mins, all in. Some people claim to hate the rig, but never seem to explain why. Poor to windward? mizzen in the cockpit?
    FWIW, I prefer the look of traditional boats, but keep reading that performance tends to lag in them. I'm not interested in racing, just comfortable cruising. In fact, last week I was thinking I should look into a Halman 21 until I read about a fellow "losing a race with a chimney" in one. I also imagine that it would take some time and effort to rig at the ramp. Not a dry sailed day- boat.

    I keep dreaming of building, though it is not an option for now.

    I've found some suitable candidates, but none are perfect:

    - NIS 23/26 - these look like the best kind of thing overall, seem to be fast and well-mannered in heavy weather. 5'11" headroom. Problems: plans available only with kit, expensive overall. Based in Australia. Canadian/American Supplier of kits? Can I choose my plywood species? Prefer sprits to booms for easy handling and head bonking safety for family. Mixed reviews of sharpie/hard chine performance in general, though it seems these are not in reference to the NIS boats specifically.

    - Presto 30: that could do the trick, if available used or cheaply. Too much $$, a little tender in the chop?

    - B&B core sound 20 mk3: I like these... a bit small. would prefer a 23-26' overall. Possibility to add some lead in there? Claim to be self-righting, but video shows testing done at a dock with no sails, calm water, and if the CB falls in, it just sits on its side. Cool concept, but I want a bit more boat. Graham, time to hit the drawing board?

    - B&B princess sharpie 26: best realistic option? I'd soup it up a bit, a bit extra ballast, aluminum tabernacles, beefier masts. I dunno, suggestions for modification? Simpler to build than mk3 above. But does it have self-draining cockpit? Can I add one, without throwing off balance? I want the enclosed outboard lazarette like the NIS boats, so some modification of plans needed here. Low headroom, at 5' but website notes pop-top possibility. That'll be a challenging build. General performance anecdotes are hard to come by. Will it handle the heavy stuff as well as the NIS boats? (700 lbs ballast in princess 26 vs 1200lbs in NIS 26) Can I plan to add that extra ballast? Hull profile similar or different? Questions for Graham, I suppose.

    Those B&B boats look great for what they are, but they're just not super sexy to me. I'd happily build some radius chines for the sexy factor.

    Others that I know about:
    Parker Dawson 26 - cool. I like it. Not too many for sale it seems, not so quick to rig I expect...

    Lots of other trailer boats on the local kijiji. This is likely my reality factor. But anything big enough to be comfy for a week will take a long time to rig, so not realistic to trailer and day-sail. Or am I missing something?
    Help!
     
  2. DCockey
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    DCockey Senior Member

    How far from shore and shelter do you want to sail? How willing are you to listen to weather forecasts and stay in a sheltered area on a stormy day? Do you have much experience sailing in those waters?

    Ease of reefing and reliability of the reefing system, and a reliable, effective auxiliary propulsion system may be two of the most important factors for comfort and safety when sailing along the shore.
    Galley in the cabin or is cooking in the cockpit/on deck on a portable stove okay? Table to sit at in the cabin or just bunks? Enclosed head? If the head is not enclosed does it need to be accessible without disturbing someone in a bunk? How much headroom? How much storage for clothes, food and miscellaneous?
    This may depend as much or more on draft than displacement, and also depends on the ramp. Are you willing to submerge the trailer hubs?

    How important is what other people think about your boat, or what you think other people think of your boat?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  3. Foxwedge
    Joined: Sep 2019
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    Foxwedge Junior Member

    Thanks for playing, David.
    My experience is mostly dinghy sailing close to shore. I dream of venturing farther out, though it's not top priority for now. The seaworthy thing is more about peace-of-mind and comfortable family sailing. I want to be able to cruise along the shore, and take a few rhumblines. Maybe 10km offshore max, usually much less.
    I would plan to listen to weather etc. for sure.
    That said, I do like going out in windier weather. I'd like a boat that can handle 25kts+ without feeling scary, and realistic ability to self-right if knocked over in a gust.
    I take your point regarding reefing. I like the b&b style here. All lines to cockpit, reefing from cockpit and hatch only. No going on deck. YES.
    In my dreams I have an inboard electric aux power. Reality, outboard in a covered well or on transom.

    Would prefer galley in cabin with flip up table or some such.
    Portapotti non enclosed is fine. I'm not too hung up on these details if the other things are satisfied. I just don't want a crapper fixed near my face when sleeping or cooking. Quarter berths only, and small porta potti up in the front? I dunno.

    Definitely planned on submerging the trailer hubs. It's the only way with my current CL16. I guess I'd prefer not to, but it never occurred to me there was another option.

    In my dreams, I want a beautiful boat that gleans respect and admiration from all who see it. In reality, if the thing is safe, big enough to cruise, and realistic to day-sail off a trailer, that's enough.
     
  4. Foxwedge
    Joined: Sep 2019
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    Location: Toronto

    Foxwedge Junior Member

    Oh yeah, you asked about headroom and storage. I'm 6' on the nose, no shoes. So i'd prefer 6'1" headroom, but that doesn't seem realistic. galley under the open hatch or a folding stool? I can deal.
    Storage etc. Looking to carry the equivalent to a comfortable canoe trip for two people, for two weeks, plus any required sailing specific gear. Not a huge amount of stuff necessary. Would like a large ice-chest that drains somewhere sensible. small fridge would be awesome, but I'm not holding my breath.
    More important is the ability to easily carry and manage anchors, ropes etc for the sailing end of things.
    cheers
    Ian
     
  5. Chuck Losness
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    Chuck Losness Senior Member

    Have you thought about a Beachcomber 25? SailboatData.com - BEACHCOMBER 25 Sailboat https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/beachcomber-25 They show up occasionally in the used market. Looks to be very similar to the B&B 26. Most of these trailer sailors don't sail to windward very well. If windward performance is a primary concern then you should look for sportboats boats with a lifting keel for trailering that is fixed in place when sailing. The older B25 is an example.
    About the B25 http://www.b25class.org/about.html Lots of newer sportboats with this configuration.

    What you should really do is make up a list of what you want in your boat and how it will be used. Commonly referred to as a "statement of requirements" or SOR for short. Then prioritize the items in your SOR in order of importance and work from there on the compromises you are willing to make. All boats are compromises.
     
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  6. Foxwedge
    Joined: Sep 2019
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    Foxwedge Junior Member

    Hi Chuck,
    That's pretty much what I tried to do in my first posting. 1-3 are necessary, the second (typo) #3-5 are the things I'm trying to maximize.
    Oh and I should add one other unspoken dealbreaker. If its a wooden boat, I want to be able to cover it in resin and cloth. So no lapstrakes I guess.

    The beachcomber looks promising. Only 70 built. I'll start looking for one.
    B25 looks too cramped to be ideal for camping aboard.

    thanks!
     
  7. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    FW.

    The sor is the way to go.

    Not sure your travel distances, but my brother found the use of his sailboat was horrid on trailer.

    On a mooring; he could go whenever and just dinghy out. Take out the sponge and swamp it off a bit and away he'd go.
     
  8. Chuck Losness
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    Chuck Losness Senior Member

    A SOR is more detailed. For example "Cruising amenities for 2" is too general. What might work one person won't work for someone else. Take Tad Roberts Tern and Raty designs. Tern, 24' Gaff-rigged Lapstrake Exploration Ketch ~ Sail and Oar Boats ~ Tad Roberts Small Boat Designs http://www.tadroberts.ca/services/small-boats/sail-and-oar/tern Ratty, 20' Lug-rigged Cat Ketch ~ Sail and Oar Boats ~ Tad Roberts Small Boat Designs http://www.tadroberts.ca/services/small-boats/sail-and-oar/ratty These boats are at the minimalist end of the spectrum yet have taken people on long coastal passages. At the other end you have boats like the Beachcomber 25 which has a diesel engine and a host of other amenities and creature comforts.
    In making a SOR you need to think about your intended cruising area, anchoring requirements, how important is shoal draft or a deep keel. Outboard or inboard. How much will you sail verses powering. Water and fuel capacity. And on and on it goes. If you have a significant other who will be cruising with you that person needs to be part of the process. I can guaranty you that they will have some requirements that will conflict with some of your requirements.

    Good luck with your search.
     
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  9. Foxwedge
    Joined: Sep 2019
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    Foxwedge Junior Member

    OK,
    I can get to work on a more detailed SOR if that is truly helpful. I'm trying to be open ended and flexible here.
    I don't mean to be daft, but it seems like the list of boats that satisfy my first three requirements, and maximize the rest, is pretty short.
    Something like the Tern 24, above, doesn't exactly maximize cruising amenities.

    Basically where I'm at is that the ideal thing is a hybrid of the B&B Princess sharpie 26 (Princess Sharpie 26 | B&B Yacht Designs https://bandbyachtdesigns.com/princess26/) and the round chine bigger sister P28R, built only once (Princess Sharpie 28 https://messing-about.com/forums/topic/6437-princess-sharpie-28/#comments).
    A 26' version of the rounded chine would be ideal; a customized version of the straight up 26 great, too. Only problem is I don't have the space or time (or frankly the cash) to build right now.

    The frustrating thing is that there are any number of potentially suitable boats for sale, dirt cheap. Catalina 22, cs 22, macgregor 25, Oday 22 etc. Only problem: too much time and effort to rig at the ramp, making it unrealistic to day-sail.
    B&B boats carry the masts in position while trailering, no stays, just flip up in the tabernacle. Why hasn't any production company gone this route? I would consider a re-rig modification, but it seems ill advised due to my design inexperience.

    Hence the mooring suggestion, which would be great. But I live in Toronto. Membership to any club, or mooring at a marina will cost more annually than the boat itself.

    My plan is to keep it on trailer at my folk's place in the country near Kingston, and get out for day sails when I'm visiting, and maybe one annual longer trip in Georgian Bay.

    I suppose you folks still want the SOR....
     
  10. Tiny Turnip
    Joined: Mar 2008
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    Tiny Turnip Senior Member

    My previous boat was a Winklebrig. Winkle Brig Home http://www.winklebrig.org/ They were a production boat that has a mast that flips up in a tabernacle, stays n all. Generally considered a very attractive boat aesthetically, gaff rigged. However, I doubt one would meet your requirements. Tiny, only 16ft, so too small for what I would consider seaworthy, and for your needs. (though I did once sleep two adults and two children on board, and it had a stove and a portapotti) fiddly and slow to sail. And still took an hour to launch, rig and load. Frankly, the idea of getting *any* boat off the trailer and sailing in 10 minutes is very optimistic. There were two mindsets I found very helpful with trailer sailing:

    1) To enjoy the pottering about launching, rigging and loading at a gentle pace. You're outside, by the water, messing about with a boat.

    2) To consider the care and maintenance of the trailer as much a part of the boat ownership as the boat itself.

    Having said the above, I eventually sold the boat because I found it was just sitting outside on the trailer and I wasn't getting out sailing. (My replacement boat two people can lift fully rigged, and I get out much more. For expeditions, I carry a tent. ;) )
     
  11. Chuck Losness
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    Chuck Losness Senior Member

    Any trailer sailor can be rigged to easily raise the mast. You don't have to disconnect all of the rigging. Only the headstay. Depending on the boat you will need to make up a hinge with a removable pin for the base of the mast. My first boat was a soling that I kept on a trailer and could only be launched with the mast down. I left all of the rigging attached except for the headstay. To raise the mast I would move the mast so I could put in the hinge pin. I used the spinnaker pole as an arm to gain leverage. The jib halyard was attached to the pole with the pole perpendicular to the mast and I attached a line to the pole that ran down to a block at the stem fitting then back to a winch. I would then winch the mast into place. Once up I only had to attach the the headstay to the stem and bend on the sails to go sailing. Took 5 to 10 minutes max to raise or lower the mast. This was decades ago. I don't think that I have any pictures but I will look. If not I will do a crude drawing. The trailer sailor websites should have articles on raising and lowering masts.
    The SOR will also give you a list of gear to look for on boats listed for sale.
     
  12. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    rwatson Senior Member

    No-one has mentioned a McGregor 26 yet.
    It fits 90% of your specs.
    You will get a lot of negatives from "real sailors", but ex owners are mostly happy, like me.
    MacGregor-26-used-sailboat-sale-india.jpg
     
  13. Chuck Losness
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    Chuck Losness Senior Member

    One of my best friends had 2 McGregor 26s. He had one of the first ones made. After using it extensively for a couple of years including numerous trips to the Catalina and the Channel Islands he gave McGregor a list of suggested improvements. McGregor included most of his suggestions in their revised model. My friend sold his original 26 and bought a new one which also saw extensive use off of So Cal.
     
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  14. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    The Mac 26 is the one they tried to sink iirc and were not abe to....

    Corrections welcome.
     

  15. Chuck Losness
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    Chuck Losness Senior Member

    My recollection is that all McGregor boats have positive foam flotation and can't sink. I think that this even includes the McGregor 65 but I could be wrong about the 65.
     
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