18's--still mostly seahuggers

Where do you sail and race foilers? I go to Florida often and would like to stop by and see your progress; maybe even try sailing one.
Thanks

 

=========================
At present I'm involved with designing and building a new type of trimaran foiler-so for the time being I'm not sailing or racing any foilers. However, I have two RC foilers that may be sailed frequently next year if that holds any interest. Also, see the story about Dr. Sams 18' Osprey for sale. As far as I know its still near here(or in Georgia) and if it is you might be able to arrange a test sail: Small trimarans under 20' https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/small-trimarans-under-20.43650/page-68#post-836060 post 1009
Talk to Tom Haman
18' Osprey:

 

So, these are not full size boats?

 

Depends on which "these" you're referring to: The 18' Osprey is Dr. Sams last boat and is fullsize, I have two RC foilers and am working on the design and development of a 14.8' LOA X 16' Beam, fullsize foiling trimaran.

 

If you are going to criticise the 18 Foot Skiff and 14 Footer movements by implying the decisions they made in banning foils were wrong, then you cannot whine if you get criticised yourself. And it is silly to claim that people who compliment foilers (as both Fred and I did) are criticising foiling. The criticism concerns the over-the-top hype and the implicit insult of seahuggers and those who are involved with them.

Basic facts - you have barely sailed a dinghy foiler. You have never raced a dinghy foiler. You have, it seems, never sailed a Skiff or seriously raced a high performance craft. And yet you claim to know more about what Skiffs should do than the classes themselves.

 

======================================
Basic facts-you don't "barely sail" a dinghy foiler. I flew a dinghy foiler of my own design and I can tell you that it required a good deal of skill given the problems that I had yet the basic(one of a kind) foil system worked well despite control problems thanks to my extensive sailing from a young age. A great experience that you haven't had!
---
>>>>>If, as you state above, it is silly to claim that people who compliment foilers are criticizing foiling then it must be incredibly silly to claim that people(that would be me) who compliment seahuggers(" .....these great boats......"-from post #1 of this thread) are criticizing seahugging!!!
---
You know nothing about me and what you do know you conveniently forget or distort when you are on one of your personal attack kicks-which you are whenever someone says something positive about foiling!
I raced a number of the highest performance boats around when I was younger including an FD, E-Scow, Thistle, Windmill, US 1, Hobie 14, Hobie 16 and others. I have spent many hours sailing many different boats -including Dr. Sams Rave and my two experimental "Super Tri's",the Tantra and aeroSKIFF and others. Since there weren't any 18's around when I was actively racing I was limited to reading about them. I studied everything I could about high performance sailing and design for the last 60 years! And for the last 25 years I have studied foilers, foiler design and foiling. I have designed and built many different fullsize designs from scratch including two trimarans, a couple of cats , a foil assist mono, a 16' monofoiler, an 18' daysailer and dozens of RC foiling test and production models and more. Almost three hundred of my fullsize designs were produced by two different companies.
------
I believe my study, racing ,sailing , boat design and building experience entitles me to have an opinion which I most certainly do-and it is a well reasoned opinion.

 

You started the criticism, Doug, when you suggested the entire 18 Footer and 14 Footer classes be transformed (which undercuts your claim that they are great boats now) and claimed that the actions of those classes were "a shame". If you don't like criticism, then don't start criticising classes. And sailing an FD or Hobie (!) is a long way from seriously racing the boats you are criticising.

 

Please tell me what that was. Your sailing activity has declined from some time in a Rave many years ago, to an RC model that you haven't sailed in 4 years and now a new model that you haven't even finished designing, much less sailed.

So based on the above, to say that I don't think you're able to sail any modern foiler is just logical deduction. If I'm wrong, prove it.

More data that refutes your proposition. The I14 community built some full foilers, just like the 18s did, and after evaluation decided it was not a direction in which they wanted to go, both classes have explicitly banned main hydrofoils (no other skiff other than Moths allow them on rudders either). The I14 rudders aren't intended for full foiling and if they were, would be totally different. They're as irrelevant to "light air" foiling as the T rudder foils used on skiff Moths.

Your assertion was that had 18s and 14s adopted foiling a few years ago they'd be foiling in "light air", an assumption that you still have provided zero evidence for. There is ample evidence to the contrary: by far the largest, most competitive and most developed foiling class, the International Moth, has not created a "light air" foiling boat. If any class was going to do it, Moths would. It's a class where sailors at the top level spend upward of $40,000 on a boat and equipment, with multiple sets of foils and rigs. It's also where being able to foil in less than 6kn or so of breeze has been shown to mean a mid–fleeter (at WC level) can win a World Championship race, or at least finish in the top 3 places.

So even where the usual barriers of cost, time and difficulty don't apply to the extent they do to other classes and there's a great reward for success, there is still no "light air" foiling.

PS
Regarding kite foiling, they're already up to 18m kites for low wind days but still can't foil in less than about 5 or 6kn of breeze (and would struggle just to keep their kites airborne). They're also stuffed if their kite hits the water or the breeze drops further (if you'd had to rescue them sitting forlornly on their boards in the middle of nowhere hoping the tide will wash them ashore you'd know), so safety is an added consideration for them.

 

You have relentlessly posted your exploits on line for some time, the last "foiler" you sailed was your home build that maybe foiled for a very short time in the one outing that you reported. If you've sailed anything else since the Rave, prove it. I am certain that you can't post a photo or other proof of you foiling anything after the Rave as you'd have already posted it.

So now you're defining "light air" foiling as "6 knots or less". Of course there are many boats are already doing that, but your assertion elsewhere is that it's in a wind speed of around 5 mph or 4 knots, which is quite a bit less.

Of all those other boats you claim can foil in 6kn of breeze, please quote references, particularly foiling sailboards. It doesn't matter if they're designed to foil in less than 6 knots, deliver some proof of them actually foiling in 4kn of breeze on more than one fluke occasion (please don't post the Quant 23 image again, that has been done to death). If they're doing it regularly it shouldn't be a problem.

Regarding rudder foils on skiffs, I was talking about "skiff" in the context of the 12-13-14-16-18 foot skiff classes. The point is that the rudder foils used by displacement and planing boats boats serve a totally different purpose to those on foiling classes, and therefore are irrelevant to "light air" foiling. E.g.

 

Kevin Elway proved that rudder T-foils alone aren't effective below about 6 knots boatspeed-I never suggested otherwise.

 

You posted about I14s using rudder foils in post 15 to apparently support your argument that had I14s allowed foiling they'd have made huge contributions to development and would have developed "light air" foiling.

You seemed to think that shows some contribution to full foiling when it doesn't, as the design of the I14 rudder foil is completely different to full foiling rudder foils and is not intended to promote full foiling. And clearly the I14s aren't contributing to your "light air" foiling argument if the foils have no benefits below about 6kn.

So I think the wash–up is that you agree with me that the I14 rudder foils are irrelevant in the context of full hydrofoiling development and "light air" foiling.

Now you just have to admit that there was also zero criticism of foiling or you, simply statements of facts as they are understood. If you have any actual evidence that supports your arguments, please produce it.

 

I made no statement regarding "light air foiling" being possible with rudder t-foils alone. You're flat wrong.
It's a unfortunate(for foiling technology) that the 14's and 18's didn't stick with full foiling-who knows what they'll do as they fight for relevance in the modern era.......

 

Doug, may I ask a polite question?

In this thread and many other times, you have referred to your many hours of sailing trimaran foilers as evidence that you are an expert on foiling. However, you have never done a single hour of sailing in a Skiff class and done very little, if any, monofoil sailing.

If experience counts - and you must believe it does since you so often write about your experience with trimaran foilers - then lack of experience must also count. You have absolutely no Skiff racing or sailing experience and basically no monofoil experience. To claim on the one hand that your trimaran foiling experience gives you important insight, but then ignore the fact that Fred and others have much more experience than you do on monofoilers and Skiffs, does not appear to be logical. Either experience on type counts, or it does not.

So how do you claim that your trimaran foiling experience makes you an expert on trimaran foilers, but also claim that people with monofoiler and Skiff experience are not experts on monofoilers and Skiffs?

It does not appear to be logical to claim that your experience on a type gives you insight, and then to dismiss the experience that others have on a type.

 

First, I have never claimed to have "many" hours sailing trimaran foilers -other than the RAVE and several rc foilers. I have NEVER claimed to be an expert on foiling-somewhat well read on the subject, maybe, and lots of experience in studying foiler design and experimenting with RC foilers and a couple of fullsize foilers. I haven't ignored other opinions-just respectfully disagreed. As I have said since post #1 of this thread, I think it is very unfortunate for foiling technology that the 18's and 14's didn't stick with full foiling. They may yet as they struggle to maintain relevance.......

--As to your claim about monofoilers: I designed, built and foiled one of the first fullsize monofoilers in the USA. Lots of problems as well as lots worked well-great learning experience.

aeroSKIFF main foil designed by me, built by John Ilett: