18's--still mostly seahuggers

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Jul 26, 2018.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Seems like such a shame that foils haven't been allowed--these great boats could use them and really develop the technology. See below for a couple of early 18 foilers. At more or less the same time the I14's banned foils -a shame as well... These two classes would have made really significant contributions to foiling technology.

    Video from Pressure Drop:



    Some tried:

    Foiling Aussie 18.jpg Foiling Aussie 18 2.jpg

    And so did some I-14's-David Luggs 14 flying:

    International 14 on foils -David Lugg 1999.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  2. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    I don't know - all this "add foils to everything" doesn't seem to be a solution really.

    The problem to be solved is fun, affordable exercise in the sun, and making everything a huge financial and mental challenge (like foils) just ruins the sport.

    Its not like yacht racing does anything really useful.
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    I think many of the new foiling developments are really exciting and I think a refined foiling 18 would be a spectacular version of an already spectacular boat. Same with the I-14. When I saw that video today it struck me how dated the boats seemed-still fantastic sailing machines , though.
    Foiling is certainly not ruining the sport and may wind up saving it-particularly with the new boats that foil in light air and are not designed for top end speed but for comfort and the joy of flying under sail.
     
  4. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    If foiling dinghies are so great, why don't you sail one?

    If foiling boats are going to save sailing, why are so few people buying them?
     
  5. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    In hindsight it was a very good decision. They experimented with full sized boats and experienced crews and decided it made the boats even more expensive and difficult to sail. There are a number of top Moth sailors (including world champions) who sail 18s, no doubt they were consulted and involved in testing and the decision not to allow hydrofoils on 18s.

    18s are expensive, difficult to sail and their continued existence is questionable. The Sydney 18s only survive because of a very wealthy benefactor, 16s survive in a couple of of Australian clubs, 14s are scattered around the world, 13s in a couple of the 16 clubs, 12s in a handful of Australian and New Zealand clubs. The rest are consigned to occasional "historical" events or clubs. The foiling 12s (R class) have dwindled to maybe 2 or 3 boats that regularly sail in one very isolated place (though I am not really in touch with them).

    Adding main lifting foils to any of the skiffs would pretty much kill the class. That they worked so well on Moths was something of a serendipitous accident that I am very happy to have been able to experience for a number of years.

    I recently stumbled across the following quote attributed to Robby Naish describing the demise of windsurfing as it pursued extreme performance to the exclusion of all else:

    "Over the years the sport of windsurfing developed itself into a tiny niche where fairly hard to find conditions with fairly strong winds were required to participate at all. We in fact developed ourselves through higher and higher performance equipment (that is no doubt unbelievably fun when the conditions are right for it) into near extinction."​

    You can continue to deny history, or learn from it.
     
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  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =================================
    Learning from history would be reflected in the new foilers that are being designed from the get-go to fly in light air. Had the 18's and 14's pursued foils they would already be doing that.
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===================
    I'm working hard on the WOLF development project designing and , hopefully, building a unique* trimaran foiler designed to be extremely comfortable and able to fly in a 5 knot breeze.
    *Using technology I developed over the last 12 years including using UptiP foils(invented by TNZ) for the first time on a trimaran. Fire Arrow/WOLF Project: High Performance MPX Foil/Self-righting Trimaran-The Test Model https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-the-test-model.36058/page-184
    ---
    Foiler design, for a long time, was focused on athletic machines with high top end speed and poor very light air performance. Thats changing with more and more designers and builders focusing on light air performance, comfort and ease of sailing. Just this week the new Eagle 53 foiling cat was announced and is one of the first large foilers to be designed specifically for excellent light air performance.
    Foiling may well save sailing with the continued high interest and new types of easy to sail, comfortable foilers becoming available-boats that can fly in the lightest breeze.
    Without a doubt had the 14's and 18's stayed with foils their contribution to foiling technology would have been substantial.

    Relaxed crew on Quant 23 keelboat foiler in very light air:

    Quant 23 production boat.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
  8. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    You can theorise about what other people might have done with boats you've never seen in the flesh, much less sailed, or you can look at reality.
    • Your tinkering with model foilers has not led to a wave of model foilers
    • The R Class hasn't replaced 12' skiffs, in fact they've faded to virtual non–existance
    • Foiling Nacras aren't flying out of showrooms, consigning the many non–foiling models to history
    • Foiling windsurfers haven't replaced skimmers, in fact they're rarely seen
    • Foiling kiteboards haven't overwhelmed the myriad of other types (skates, single fins, multi–fins, etc.)
    • Fleets of Quant 23s aren't popping up in sports boat events
    • DSS isn't being licenced en mass for cruisers and racers. In fact DSS has seen far lower adoption than canting keels, which are used by a relatively small number of racing yachts
    • Despite years of admirable efforts, the Mirabaud project hasn't developed anything that might translate into a marketable foiler
    • Early foilers like the Raves and Hobie Trifoiler have disappeared because there was no market, and nothing has arisen from those designs
    There is zero evidence to support your theory. There is ample evidence to show that the added cost, complexity and difficulty of foiling puts the boats beyond the reach of most people.

    You are a perfect example of why foiling boats aren't isn't as popular as you'd like them to be. You can't afford a foiler and even if you could, you can't sail one. Even if someone gave you a foiler and taught you to sail one, you'd then have to find the right location and conditions. So despite your obvious enthusiasm, you're stuck tinkering with models and wishing for someone else to make a "light air", low cost foiler that someone like you can sail.
     
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  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Absolute uninformed nonsense!! Particularly your last paragraph which is not just nonsense but absolutely false. You don't know what you're talking about so you resort to outright made up BS. I have hundreds of hours on a Rave as well as in the design and testing of my first fullsize monofoiler and thousands of hours in design and testing RC foilers.
    -------
    https://www.windfoilzone.com/single-post/windfoiling-future-of-windsurfing

    Light wind foiling: https://www.windfoilzone.com/single-post/windfoil-in-light-wind-conditions

    IKA KiteFoil GoldCup http://kitefoilgoldcup.com/

    2011 thread Kitefoilers vs "normal" kiteboards- Foiling Kiteboards vs "normal" kiteboards https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/foiling-kiteboards-vs-normal-kiteboards.35108/

    Welcome to the International Kiteboarding Association http://internationalkiteboarding.org/

    Hydrofoil Pro Tour(50 hydrofoil kites) Entry List | 2018 Hydrofoil Pro Tour https://www.regattatoolbox.com/entryList?eventID=cndqVao6j2

    Dynamic Stability Systems https://www.facebook.com/Dynamic-Stability-Systems-108260099200602/

    Dynamic Stability Systems http://www.dynamicstabilitysystems.com/

    See post #7 above for WOLF and Fire Arrow

    Foiling radio control trimarans https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/foiling-radio-control-trimarans.55840/

    Go here: Foil Assist Monohulls https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/foil-assist-monohulls.60502/

    New Monohull Foilers 2018 https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/new-monohull-foilers-2018.59882/

    New Monohull Foilers 2017 https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/new-monohull-foilers-2017.57671/

    New Trimaran Foilers https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/new-trimaran-foilers.55834/

    New Catamaran Foilers https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/new-catamaran-foilers.51898/

    F3 RC Foiler first production RC sailing foiler-designed by DL -first use of Dr. Sam Bradfields foil system on an RC foiler- dual independent wands for main foils used downforce to develop all the RM for the boat, first use of wing tip rig.
    18+ MPH with reefed rig(20+ claimed by customer), 12mph in 5mph wind .

    F3 foiler.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
  10. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    When you make statements like "Absolute uninformed nonsense" you should at least make some attempt to address the points raised. When you reference material, you should note how it supports your argument with quotes and references. As far as I can tell, not one of your references refutes any of the points I raised. It's just a melange of irrelevant stuff.

    The first link is to an article that's an opinion piece, no dates or adoption numbers to support either your "light air" theory or that foilers are more popular than skimmers. It's mostly trying to support the adoption of foiling sailboards for the Olympics, and doesn't even directly address more than half of its own list of common criticism of foiling.

    I have no idea what you think the second link to the Kite Foil Gold Cup World Series proves. In the results, there were 16 entries in Korea, 26 for the first series in China reducing to 21 in the following series and only 39 entries for the final series in Italy. Hardly a ringing endorsement that foiling kites are taking over (a local masters Laser event attracted 55 entries a couple of weeks ago in the middle of our winter). The kite foilers I know spend a lot of time on the beach waiting for the right conditions for one of their 3 or 4 kites. They think hydrofoils are great fun, but since they mostly sail in shallow water, adding a 1m foil mast to the bottom of their boards is the last thing they want to do. For them, it's not about outright speed (they can reach well over 30kn without foils), but having fun in relatively shallow water near the beach.

    The reference to your "Fire Arrow" and "Wolf" models is surely satirical. One sailed a couple of times over 4 years ago and foiled for less that 2 minutes in total. The other will likely never sail, much less foil. Neither proves anything in regard to "light air" foiling or how foiling is the future (of radio controlled multihull models?).

    Of your lists of "New <whatever> foilers…", how many have produced more that a handful of boats? And in the same time frame, boats like the RS Aero, Devoti D0 and Melges 14 have likely each outsold all of them put together, excluding perhaps the WASZP.

    But the most telling reference is to your F3. Congratulations for designing and developing the boat to production and selling some, I think that rates as a success. But where are they now? Where are the copycats filling the massive market for foiling model boats? I know a bunch of guys sailing International One Metre boats, their association recognises 10 classes (5 mono, 5 multi), none foiling. They're very competitive, travel up to 80km to sail regularly at various locations and spend stupid amounts of money on their boats. They have zero interest in sailing foiling boats, even though most of the traditional excuses don't apply.
     
  11. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    The question was fairly simple, and you ignored it. If foiling dinghies are so great, why don't you sail one? That means sailing one - not building models of a foiling trimaran. How long has it been since you claimed to have foiled the AeroSkiff? About four years? So what you are trying to say is that dinghy foiling is an amazing feeling, which you haven't bothered to do in four years or so, and have apparently no plans to try soon. That's hardly convincing. If it's so good that you even a supposed fan does it once or twice and then walks away, then it's no wonder that so many other people are ignoring it.

    Sailing doesn't need saving. Many classes without foils (like Lasers, J/70s and 111s, Fevas, Aeros, IRC boats, etc) are often doing very well, thanks. New designs like the Aero, DF65, J111 and Windsurfer LT are probably outselling every foiler in their sector. The classes that are in trouble are normally the expensive, complex ones that foils would only make more complex and more expensive. Other sports that largely ignore foiling and other bleeding-edge areas (like plastic kayaks) are doing quite well and taking market share from sailing.

    There is no high interest in actually buying foilers in the mass market. As Fred points out, almost none of the boats you point out have become popular. The Moths are reporting stagnant numbers in many areas. The As have barely increased in numbers since they adopted foils. That information comes from the class reports themselves. The Quant 23 production run stopped at about nine boats. It's bizarre to claim such a minute number of craft as evidence of any trends towards foiling.

    The boats are great, but much of the hype is stupid and dishonest. The fact that you, a supposed dinghy foiler fanatic, cannot stir yourself to actually sail one says more about the level of hype than any amount of posts from you.
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Red=DL>
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  13. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    What's made up BS? The simple fact is that you keep on claiming that dinghy foiling is huge fun, and yet for years on end you have not bothered to sail a foiling dinghy. It's a lie to call it BS. It's a fact. Oh, I know that you have made model foilers, and one foiling dinghy that you claimed worked. That is beside the point. The point is simple - if dinghy foiling is as much fun as you claim, it's odd that for years on end you have not bothered to do it.

    Post number 9 does nothing to show there is high interest in buying foilers for the mass market. None of those craft have actually become mass market successes. The only two strong foiling classes are reporting little if any growth. To point to one class that has sold about 10 boats as evidence of "mass market" success in a sport where a comparable mass-market success like the J/70 is selling 200+ boats per year. The Quant 23 is being out-sold by the J/70 at a rate of about 60 to 1. No reasonable person can call that evidence that light-air foiling is a mass market sales success.

    I didn't make any assertions about who is making stupid and dishonest claims. I also didn't make any mention of your Rave and trimaran experience since the point was about dinghy foiling and the fact that you keep on saying how great it is, but you don't do it yourself and appear to have no plans to do so.
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Red=DL>
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===============================================
    Expressing this opinion has lead to uninformed criticism of me and, wait for it----foiling!! Too bad........
    NOTE-it should be pointed out that while several International 14's used fully flying hydrofoils the whole class ok'd the use of "foil assist" which is now common in the Class.
    Bieker sketch showing 400n lift on rudder T-foil @ 9kts:

    Bieker 14 illustration - Copy.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
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