Epicure proa ("Indian proa")

[bjn]

I found this 47' proa "Epicure". I think it's beautiful.

It's an "Indian proa". Similar to the Atlantic proa, with the difference that the leeward hull is the longest hull.

I think this design might be the fastest of all proas. It has the weight of both the ackommodation and the sailing rig to windward, giving a good righting moment. It sails with the longest hull to leeward, meaning low drag.

http://proafile.com/archive/article/a_loaf_of_bread_and_proa
http://proafile.com/archive/article/proafile_exclusive_epicure_47_cruising_proa

I haven't found more info about the boat, except one post on this forum.

Does anybody know if the boat is still sailing?
How do you like the design?

 

[redreuben]

So.......

Move the rig to the leeward hull and you have Harryproa.
Interesting, another variation of the proa format, thanks for posting, I'd not seen that before now.

 

[UpOnStands]

say you lose the rig - how do the proas ride the weather given their asymmetrical hulls?

 

[lucdekeyser]

The owner had no money left to correct problems with boards and rudder. The boat got loose of moorings twice while waiting for buyer. No mention of damage. Aluminum hulls. Last post was in 2013 when builder CNA YACHTING tried to find the funds to put her on the hard at the factory.

 

[bjn]

The owner had no money left to correct problems with boards and rudder. The boat got loose of moorings twice while waiting for buyer. No mention of damage. Aluminum hulls. Last post was in 2013 when builder CNA YACHTING tried to find the funds to put her on the hard at the factory.

Thanks for the info. That is sad news.
http://www.ouest-france.fr/bretagne/lorient-56100/un-navire-oublie-sur-le-blavet-911502

Move the rig to the leeward hull and you have Harryproa.

Yes, I thought so too!

I think one reason Rob doesn't like having the rig in the WW hull is because it's interfering with the space of the WW hull and the deck. As well as creating noise and vibrations. I think the cruising Harryproa concept is a bit like having a houseboat attached as a counterweight to a sailboat. The guests in the houseboat doesn't really have to know anything about, or be affected by, the sailing.

Since the rig and supporting structures has a significant weight though, this Indian proa concept should have better righting moment than the Harryproa, given the same weight and beam.

 

[Zulu40]

I think it varies from HarryProa by adding pressure on the leeward hull therefore increasing its displacement, where the HP will be tending to lift the WW hull thereby decreasing its displacement

While unlikely to fly a hull, HP then is likely to be faster on similar specifics

 

[DennisRB]

I think this design might be the fastest of all proas. It has the weight of both the ackommodation and the sailing rig to windward (heavy short hull), giving a good righting moment. It sails with the longest hull to leeward, meaning low drag (light long hull)

This is the part I have tried to get weight to windward proa advocates to assess in technical terms because it is simply an incorrect blanket statement and ignores rear world displacement changes from the short to the long hull.

We know the following: Displacement to length ratio is the overriding factor when it comes to hull resistance at higher froude numbers. Therefore a long light hull will have low drag compared to shorter heavier hull.

This kind of proa has a long light hull, BUT the majority of the displacement is on the short heavy hull. Since we know resistance is related to DLR it makes sense to gauge performance on the most substantial hull which is the short heavy hull. Think of it this way if I put a light 50 foot outrigger on a 25 foot Bruce Roberts Spray will it suddenly have an amazing DLR? Of course not.

Now obviously the weight to windward proa has a TOP speed advantage as when all its righting moment it used up and sailing 100% on its long hull its DLR can be considered on its long hull. But on every other occasion the overall resistance will be some combination of the DLR from the more substantial short hull combined with the long hull. Sailing in light winds, motoring, sailing downwind etc.

Therefore this configuration is not automatically fastest and depends greatly on its operating condition.

IMO these are facts which are hard to dispute. I am certainly not part of any tribal proa bashing brigade. I think Epicure is awesome. I am a big fan of these designs and their many other advantages but I would like to see this fact discussed within this type of boat rather than ignored. A boat like Bucket list easily has the sail area and light weight to be able to use its long hull fully most of the time. For a larger cruiser this will not be the case. I wish I knew how to use Michlete so I could simulate total resistance of a proa as the displacement shifts from the short hull to the long one. If tests like this have been done I would like to see the results and how they relate with hull loading changes from sailing loads at various wind strengths and directions.

 

[DennisRB]

I think it varies from HarryProa by adding pressure on the leeward hull therefore increasing its displacement, where the HP will be tending to lift the WW hull thereby decreasing its displacement

While unlikely to fly a hull, HP then is likely to be faster on similar specifics

The location of the rig will make pretty much zero aerodynamic difference to that unless there is a reasonable rig angle (due to design or heel). If the heeling moment is horizontal it wont matter which hull its on. But if there is some downward moment due to the rig being canted to leeward there would be some difference.

 

[lucdekeyser]

I do not want to get into haggling about nomenclature but why is this design called an Indian Proa? Doesn't its configuration fit the definition of an Atlantic proa?

 

[Gary Baigent]

I know Daniel Charles from when he visited NZ during one of the Whitbreads. He earlier designed the 55 foot Atlantic proa Tahiti Douche (second image, with young Halvard Mabire? on wing beam) - and later his own boat Epicure (he is a very serious gourmet).
From probably unreliable gossip I heard, Daniel was a little unhappy with his result not only from the expense but also its performance.

 

[bjn]

With faster I only meant top speed. I guess you are using the word in a different way.

 

[DennisRB]

With faster I only meant top speed. I guess you are using the word in a different way.

No I am using it in a standard way which is used for handicap racing. Faster to me means an average over the intended sailing conditions. Say your average speed after sailing racing/cruising for X years. If something has a 10% higher top speed and but 10% slower average speed its slower overall and would be rated slower under rules such as PHRF. But this is semantics and either way is valid as long as we explain what we are talking about. I think you will have a tough time arguing boat A is faster than boat B when boat B wins against it in races the majority of the time. I think top speed should therefore be mentioned. Either way.

 

[bjn]

Sorry for being short, I'm writing on the phone. I think you made a good post, and you are probably right that the Indian Proa is slower in light conditions.