America's Cup declining?

[rwatson]

Say what?

Most of the money just distributed to high end technicians, whom it would probably go to even if there wasn't an AC.

Maybe it would be different high end technicians.

For every 'high end technician' there is a small army of suppliers, support staff, parts workers, facility renters, etc just like the exotic car industry.

The idea that a sport specializing in uber-expensive toys for big egos, could be of interest to a large number of spectators doesn't compute for me.

Heck, there are millions of people around the world just fascinated by a $20 inflatable rubber sphere, that is just kicked around a grass paddock.

 

[michael pierzga]

The chosen boat must be affordable . The present monstrosities only encourage Oligarchs and Pharaohs to challenge.

The chosen boat shall have a long life cycle so that up and coming syndicates can purchase last cycles boat as a training, trial horse.

 

[SteveMellet]

The chosen boat must be affordable . The present monstrosities only encourage Oligarchs and Pharaohs to challenge.

The chosen boat shall have a long life cycle so that up and coming syndicates can purchase last cycles boat as a training, trial horse.

While this sounds sensible, it does not translate into reality. In the last Keelboat AC South Africa did exactly that, but it took a sponsorship from a German company to bankroll their tiny-budget attempt. The budget required to win the AC in the keelboat version was so far out of reach of most countries, that it makes no difference if the budget is 30million$ or 300million$. It's a bit like saying you shouldn't test-drive a Ferrari if you can't afford a Porsche.

CT 249 :
"Canters remain extremely rare and even in the big offshore boats they are forming a minute percentage of new builds....they're done, a multi is so much faster that building a mono for maximum speed is like breeding a racing daschund or growing a bigger bonsai tree. "

Now that is one of the funniest quotes I've read in a long time. (Though my daschund is faster around a tight racecourse than my Great Dane.)

I know multi's are not everyone's idea of the right formula for the AC, and I know foiling multis have made a heathen concept for some, into the work of the devil. While for others it is the stuff of dreams it is the stuff of nightmares, especially for the monohull believers. I must say that in the first time in the history of the cup, spectators line the piers to watch one boat race against itself, I can't imagine that if one 12m yacht pitched up to race itself, anyone would stop to watch at all. The future of the cup might not best be served by 72ft wing-sailed multihulls, but I hope it doesn't go back to uninspiring keelboats that in themselves bear very little resemblance to what normal keelboats are - if the concern is to align it with mainstream sailing craft that the general public and average club racers can relate to, at least make it performance oriented keelboats. I know very little about the A-scows, but I would rather watch the A-scow sailing at club race level, than the IACC class at America's Cup level, so perhaps fast planing keelboats with a healthy minimum wind limit so planing is guaranteed, will liven the monohull option up a bit. I think Doug Lord mentioned the Reighel Pugh 60ft Scow - that would be a cool place to start developing a rule from if it must be in monohulls. At least then the downwind speeds will be in double digits.

 

[wet feet]

A huge thread.None of it will make the slightest difference since the event in question is a competition between two egos,when brought down to fundamentals.The egos in question will agree on a type of boat and hire the people they believe are best to design and sail it.Others with the money and desire to compete may materialise or may not.Wistful references to design formulae from the early twentieth century don't seem to have much resonance with the guys likely to fund any future campaigns.
When (if) another challenge happens why doesn't this forum try to collectively design a suitable boat?There should be enough knowledge and who knows,a curious billionaire might just stumble upon it and take it forward.

 

[Gary Baigent]

Just to inject some reality (regarding AC astonishing developments) for you negative chaps to read and weep:

Shortly after starting, skipper Dean Barker and the Kiwi crew recorded a top speed of 44.15 knots – 50.8 mph/81.7 kph/74.5 feet per second – on the first reach leg. The windspeed on the leg peaked at 15.8 knots. The team’s previous record was 43.26 knots, set on July 9 in slightly stronger winds.

“By far this is the coolest, most fun boat I’ve ever sailed on, there’s no doubt about that,” said Emirates Team New Zealand wing trimmer Glenn Ashby, who watched today’s race from the chase boat.

 

[michael pierzga]

Just to inject some reality (regarding AC astonishing developments) for you negative chaps to read and weep:

Shortly after starting, skipper Dean Barker and the Kiwi crew recorded a top speed of 44.15 knots – 50.8 mph/81.7 kph/74.5 feet per second – on the first reach leg. The windspeed on the leg peaked at 15.8 knots. The team’s previous record was 43.26 knots, set on July 9 in slightly stronger winds.

“By far this is the coolest, most fun boat I’ve ever sailed on, there’s no doubt about that,” said Emirates Team New Zealand wing trimmer Glenn Ashby, who watched today’s race from the chase boat.

Youre easily impressed...........

 

[upchurchmr]

Michael,

I am a little surprised at that comment.
The return would be:

You have no imagination.

This whole argument is getting tiresome.

 

[michael pierzga]

My imagination would be impressed if I saw 12 competitive teams battling it out, in close racing, to decide the America's cup challenger.

Gee Whizz !! speedsters, foiling around the course, are circus acts...not a match racing championship.

 

[upchurchmr]

I guess they should have just used the 40' boats for the actual cup.
Would that be good enough?
I forgot, they actually have about 12 teams. (I don't know how many)
How did you like those? Too small now?

OK, 50' but to the same design? That would be less cost, more opportunity for the downtrodden. Sorry - the non-Pharaohs.

How about a "boatdesign" team. That ought to really get some interest. Or a catfight.

 

[sharpii2]

Just to inject some reality (regarding AC astonishing developments) for you negative chaps to read and weep:

Shortly after starting, skipper Dean Barker and the Kiwi crew recorded a top speed of 44.15 knots – 50.8 mph/81.7 kph/74.5 feet per second – on the first reach leg. The windspeed on the leg peaked at 15.8 knots. The team’s previous record was 43.26 knots, set on July 9 in slightly stronger winds.

“By far this is the coolest, most fun boat I’ve ever sailed on, there’s no doubt about that,” said Emirates Team New Zealand wing trimmer Glenn Ashby, who watched today’s race from the chase boat.

The speed is impressive indeed.

But it shouldn't be surprising.

These boats have a WL that is 22.0 meters long and a displacement 5.7 to 5.9 M^3. That gives them a D/L of roughly only16!

The S/D's of these boats, just counting the wing sail is a whopping 79.

And they foil.

The one thing I understand about foiling is that your maximum speed is quite tied to your take off speed. The faster you are going before the foils lift the boat, the smaller in area the foils can be. The smaller the area, the lower the friction drag.

Also, the wing sails may not be the greatest when it comes to plain lift, but are incredibly efficient when it comes to lift to drag.

Everything about these boats means speed, speed and more speed.

The only two draw backs are:

1.) Both boats have capsized with significant damage and
2.) One capsize caused a fatality.

If either boat capsizes during the actual races and is significantly damaged, the other boat stands to win the series by default.

If that happens, the winner is likely to specify different boats for next AC series (he may accurately see that it was a matter of dumb luck that the opponents boat capsized and not his).

It appears to be one of the goals of this design type to be able to be disassembled and put in shipping containers (thanks to Doug showing me the link, I was able to down load the AC72 design rules).

I wonder if there are any tramp freighters left that could carry something, such as an old 12 or an IACC, as deck cargo.

 

[Doug Lord]

Americas Cup Ascending!

No ,ifs ands or buts: didn't two IACC leadbellies break in half and sink? Sounds fairly dangerous. And there was a death along the line too, if I remember correctly. That sounds really dangerous. Thank God we got rid of them because with all that -they were slow!
Go the Flying 17ers! (Recently released secret files show that the top speed of Team USA is significantly higher than Team New Zealand. Thanks for teaching our Aussies how......)

 

[michael pierzga]

How many world class helmsman, tacticians, crew, designers....are forced to sit on their *** during the prime of their career because they cant find a sponsor willing to throw away 150 million to compete in the Americas Cup ?

This speed at any cost fetish hurts sailing and sailors

It is a Fiasco...

No British, No French, No German, No Brazillian, No Australian, No Spanish.....challengers.

 

[Doug Lord]

How many world class helmsman, tacticians, crew, designers....are forced to sit on their *** during the prime of their career because they cant find a sponsor willing to throw away 150 million to compete in the Americas Cup ?

This speed at any cost fetish hurts sailing and sailors

It is a Fiasco...

No British, No French, No German, No Brazillian, No Australian, No Spanish.....challengers.

=================
This America's Cup and the vision behind it is the greatest development in America's Cup history-at least during my lifetime. It has problems like all Cups do but the changes here have the greatest channce of blossoming into a true contest between great designers and sailors and nations of any Cup that I can remember. I'm all for the boat, the course and the vision.
And I think ,as the world economy improves, there will be more challengers no doubt lured by participating in the greatest sailing/design/technology event of them all. I hope Oracle wins and continues improving and refining the vision. It has already inspired sailors and boatbuilders alike with the revolutionary 3 foil system pioneered by TNZ and now being further refined and developed by all the Little America's Cup C Class Challenge Teams and by others like Sail Innovation-rare when trickledown from the America's Cup starts before the race is even sailed.
Go Flying 17er's!

 

[upchurchmr]

Michael,

Not going to respond about the 40'ers?

How many helmsmen, etc., are there?

There has always been a limited number who can play.

Now that the ground has been broken, the next challenge will benefit from what is known and now obvious.

Go ahead and make the boats smaller. That will be cheaper and allow more in the sandbox. When everyone reaches the same level of development we will have cloned boats and more close match racing. Then we will get to watch those who love rules see what kind of senseless antics get used to force rule based conflicts instead of sailing.

But what do I care. Until the last three Cups I thought the whole thing was a sleeper, along with every non-sailor I knew. Now lots of people come up and talk about the boats.

 

[rwatson]

Years ago, I bought this strange little bit of software that simulated yacht racing, all the way from dinghys to A class cats.

I reckon they should develop a huge, multiplayer version so all us armchair sailors on our PC's can compete instead of jawing interminably about it.

Actually, CGI is a bit artificial. How about a huge water filled arena with scale model radio controlled boats, that you can 'log on' to, and take over controls.

Big fans can simulate wind shifts, wave makers can provide various sea conditions, and you can request special trimming from technicians. And you get mini-camera real time vision from the helm, from the shore, from the mast head etc. .......

Hey - I copyright this idea, send $300 for the armchair controls complete with wheel, mini winches, colour coded sheets and full instrumentation .....


Actually, I think the Americas cup boats should get even bigger - 200 foot long, multiple wing sail quadramans with a crew of 20, with a mandatory kite sail for the downwind legs - lets make this a real visual event !