New 27' trimaran design by Kurt Hughes

[Corley]

Ian Farrier takes swipes at other designers and their design choices all the time on public forums while seeking to prove the worth of his designs over others. He often resorts to talking about folding systems and easy trailerability when questioned over his designs performance versus other designs in racing which is really just an evasion. His brand of evasive criticism deserves to be taken to task just as much as Kurt's bluntness. Dressing up a critique with flowery wording as is Ian's way does not make it any more fair or reasonable. Call a spade a bloody spade I reckon and be done with it.

If anything Kurt is just more honest by naming other designers and what he feels are flaws in their designs. I mean really calling a boat design a "Tremelino eater" is pretty mild and the design was faster and more performance oriented so there is no fabrication there. It's no more offensive than Newick's "Chaak duster" design name maybe both designers need to grow a thicker skin. Did Newick's boats perform poorly in racing versus the local Puget Sound fleet or not? I dont see anyone arguing the point that they were slower just complaining about Kurt's way of putting it.

 

[Silver Raven]

IF is far from an advertising pro. Take a look at any of his interactions with Mike Leneman on any of several forums available and you'll see the same behaviors exhibited. Sad, but true.

Gooday Roger, james here - from 'down under' - seems I know where I am but have some difficulty understand other peoples addresses. Oooops sorry - Christchurch - United Kingdom - Appologies ! !

Roger - just who is Mike Leneman ??? - is he some kind of guiding light ??? that we should all know about & respect his valued words ???

I would have thought - we - that's all of us - were big enough to - take life - with a bit of humour - seems that not the case.

L-S - Michael - I'll PM you so as not to 'way-lay' the subject of this forum. Lighten up chap - neither you nor I are all that important - in the overall big picture.

Enjoy you sailing - learn to smile & lighten-up - eh - - ciao, james

 

[Gary Baigent]

Roger and Corley, just to put the record straight, when borax poking is applied to designers ... quite common behaviour on these threads, you know, passing comment about others' work (though not as extreme as our friends on Sailing Anarchy) ... it is unnecessary to get sniffy and righteous that Kurt was being singled out, was not the case, happens to everyone. If people get uptight about criticism ... well then, get uptight about it; criticism is a two bladed sword, cuts both ways.
The main point about Kurt comparing his more recent designs to those of decades earlier ... well, lacked sense, was out of balance; I'm sure he can handle that small amount of borax.
Oh yes, Roger, so those comments were on KH's personal viewing only blog site, wasn't meant for other peoples' eyes? Right.

 

[Corley]

I actually dont have a problem with your comments at all Gary it was Silver Raven and Cav's ranting that put my teeth on edge. I agree that comparing later boats to the designs of the prototype multi's in the video is drawing a bit of a strange comparison. However the Newick boats that went there to race are fair game.

On the video a boat like Toria for example was quite a revolutionary boat for the time being of round bilge and foam sandwich construction. Derek Kelsall conceded that they had not spent enough time and attention on rigging the boat properly. The later Trifle built along the same lines was a much better boat with far superior performance and a much better rig and sails. Ditto the low buoyancy float argument at the time low buoyancy float trimarans with limited float buoyancy was thought to be the go.

My Kraken 25 trimaran project for example is a product of the prevailing view at the time. I would not be rebuilding it along the same lines if I thought it was vastly inferior to later designs. on a light round the buoys boat like that with a low aspect rig and crew weight being a high proportion of the boats righting moment (yeah ok I'm heavy I admit it) it can make a lot of sense and offer good performance. I dont recall Chris White's comments on racing his Discovery 20' trimaran (a low float volume trimaran out of interest) versus a 24' Newick trimaran drawing the same amount of condemnation although basically they say the same thing.

http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/trimarans/discovery_20/

 

[cavalier mk2]

Ah Corely I was laughing when I penned what you saw as a rant....I approve of exporting KHs designs, then we don't have to build them! It is funny that his site features Chaak as his racing success when it has a Jim Brown mainhull! But I heard commenting on old boats of the living designers isn't enough for him anymore- he has set his sights on the dead ones! Yes the thought of a Vagabond in the NW, that state of the art mid 60s design has him hitting the keys to come up with his new design, TRAMP PASSER.(It's a gasser!) Its almost as silly as having a F40 without a circuit......
Cheers, Cav

 

[Corley]

Ah Corely I was laughing when I penned what you saw as a rant....I approve of exporting KHs designs, then we don't have to build them! It is funny that his site features Chaak as his racing success when it has a Jim Brown mainhull! But I heard commenting on old boats of the living designers isn't enough for him anymore- he has set his sights on the dead ones! Yes the thought of a Vagabond in the NW, that state of the art mid 60s design has him hitting the keys to come up with his new design, TRAMP PASSER.(It's a gasser!) Its almost as silly as having a F40 without a circuit......
Cheers, Cav

Gee, I think Kurt had the win there with you not wanting to build one of his designs or be one of his customers. I'm happy with my choice of boat to build, F40 or not it meets the parameters of the racing boat I'm looking for and comes with a construction method that meets my budget. Thats more than can be said for a lot of the racing multihulls that are out there as an alternative.

 

[Silver Raven]

Gee, I think Kurt had the win there with you not wanting to build one of his designs or be one of his customers. I'm happy with my choice of boat to build, F40 or not it meets the parameters of the racing boat I'm looking for and comes with a construction method that meets my budget. Thats more than can be said for a lot of the racing multihulls that are out there as an alternative.

Gooday Corley - don't take Cav - without a large 'stirring' spoon - all to seriously - cause he's a great stirrer. However - it'd be well to remember - many a truth is said in jest.

Cav - stop stirring - not for my sake - I can still read - between the lines - of your 'tounge in cheek' humour but because other might be offended - ah - tut tut, gee !

Corley - you don't need to stick-up for Kurt - I'm sure he's a big boy by now & can defend himself quite adequately (judging by some of his articles & comments) so - cut him some slack & let him defend his atrocious bad manners - which - like it or not - I am allowed to make comment about - 1/ cause I've been in the marine industry in 4 countries for more than 50 years now 2/ because I'm a really still involved with the - exterior presentation - of this industry which has fed me - my whole life 3/ because I've lived - slept - eaten - played & worked 24/7/52 with multihulls since 1955 4/ Because I was raised in the PNW & take exception to his lack of manners - it taints my birth-place & 5/ because as a senior person in this multihull field & don't like bad verbal attitude to bring this wonderful hobby (& profession) down to the least uncommon denominator.

That's my final comment about this matter - it just doesn't deserve any more verbage - at least from me. However I do finally mention that we might all lighten up a tad & stop being so thin-skinned & over sensitive - new age jurks - me included - if you wish. That should also include 'R-R' who now might understand why I took the stand that I did - If not - then sh't-happens, eh ! ! ciao, james

 

[Corley]

It's all cool Silver Raven, I'm not as serious as my posts seem to make me sound either. Phil (Catsketcher) has put up a lucid comment on Kurt's blog post. He might want to go back and edit a bit if possible as he puts the Newick boats down as cylinder molded when they were actually cold molded which makes the reply sound a bit weird in one place.

 

[silentbay]

Thanks for describing your brief for the design Simmo. What construction method are you looking at for the new boat and how was Muffalo constructed? What is the multihull racing scene like in your area are there many competitors? Is there a handicap system and how does it work? Do you have any preliminary thoughts on what sort of sail area you are going to run on the boat? What category safety rating are you aiming at for the boat category 3? Hope thats not too many questions, cheers.

No worries mate!
The construction method i guess will be the same of muffolo: sandwich of foam and e glass or carbon but this time vacumbagged.
Muffolo was foam and glass, epoxy resin with no vacumbagging.
Unfortunately for the moment there are not so many competitors, but i'm trying to do my best to get as many as i can to make the scene developing more and more! If u're keen u can see our regattas results and stuff here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Associazione-Italiana-Multiscafi-Cabinati/245385905506498?ref=ts

For the moment for simplicity we race only overall, and sometimes is even more fun for sailors owning the smallest trimarans, so u push even more than normal...sometimes winning too on dragonfly 920 extreme!!
(do u have any link where I can find some rating methods?)

My thoughts about sailplans, living in a super light breeze area, is to get the biggest area staying within the limits, even if that would mean reefing in 12 knots of wind. My aim is something like the seacart 30 but a resized at 27, with foils, wider (cause i reckon wider is safer) and able to sail in 0.1 knots like seacart 30 does!

About safety category i don't know ur international category we have letters like : cat A cat B or Cat C. I don't care what letter i'm gonna get, but I asked kurt to be able to do offshore regattas too staying in the rules.

sorry for my bad english hope u gonna understand what i'm saying

ciao!

 

[cavalier mk2]

Good for Phil! Well said. And tactful.... I'd be interested to know what Newick boats were up in Seattle, it would be helpful to any comparison. In all fairness the biggest variables on all designers boats here and elsewhere are the people sailing them. I have watched very fast designs finish well down then come up to the front as experience improves. Up here it usually means getting both upwind and downwind tacking angles right.

 

[yves]

(do u have any link where I can find some rating methods?)

There is the "multi 2000" rating method which has been developed, described below :
http://www.multicoques-habitables.com/jauge.htm

Note : that page is in French but the document linked at the bottom have English versions (Gbr)

The rating explained in below doc (English) :
http://www.multicoques-habitables.com/Comment se faire jauger anglais 2012.pdf

 

[cavalier mk2]

I watched the videos.....my suggestion for everybody with open wing boats is to put some of the ama area into a wing projection inboard of the amas. This will dramatically reduce the amount of spray in the cockpit and also reduce the ama drag from the cross arm attachments encountering the fire hose. It will also help keep the ama from burying and tripping at speed. Converting the topsides spray drag into some lift is a good thing. Keeping the girls drier, especially in cold waters, is even better......You'll still have lots of netting left but it will be more usable.

 

[Corley]

No worries mate!
The construction method i guess will be the same of muffolo: sandwich of foam and e glass or carbon but this time vacumbagged.
Muffolo was foam and glass, epoxy resin with no vacumbagging.
Unfortunately for the moment there are not so many competitors, but i'm trying to do my best to get as many as i can to make the scene developing more and more! If u're keen u can see our regattas results and stuff here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Associazione-Italiana-Multiscafi-Cabinati/245385905506498?ref=ts

For the moment for simplicity we race only overall, and sometimes is even more fun for sailors owning the smallest trimarans, so u push even more than normal...sometimes winning too on dragonfly 920 extreme!!
(do u have any link where I can find some rating methods?)

My thoughts about sailplans, living in a super light breeze area, is to get the biggest area staying within the limits, even if that would mean reefing in 12 knots of wind. My aim is something like the seacart 30 but a resized at 27, with foils, wider (cause i reckon wider is safer) and able to sail in 0.1 knots like seacart 30 does!

About safety category i don't know ur international category we have letters like : cat A cat B or Cat C. I don't care what letter i'm gonna get, but I asked kurt to be able to do offshore regattas too staying in the rules.

sorry for my bad english hope u gonna understand what i'm saying

ciao!

Salve Simmo,
Your construction method sounds like a good idea, vac bagging is worth the extra effort and once you get the hang of it not much more difficult to pull off.

In Australia we normally use either club handicaps or the OMR rating system which is based on the US texel system. In general it gives pretty good results it's tough for the really top boats to win though as they take a substantial hit on handicap but given the right conditions they can still occasionally come out on top. There is also the Portsmouth yardstick system which seems to work quite well as a guide to handicap however I'm not very familiar with it. Currently the OMR rule does not penalise lifting foils or beam but that may be changed in a future version of the rule. For now they are just gathering data.

http://www.mycq.org.au/OMR/

Your rig size idea sounds good. Somewhere between the extreme and moderate is good. If I recall correctly OMRA 60 trimarans were looking to tie in a reef somewhere around the 5kt windspeed mark so 12kt is a good compromise.

I assume Cat A would be equivalent to our Cat 1 regulation. Most coastal and offshore races would require somewhere around Cat 3 (Cat C?) which is not difficult to achieve.

Ciao.

 

[cavalier mk2]

There is a low cost Mr Science experiment for those that need to see the power of spray using a bathroom scale in a waterproof bag and a garden hose. A digital scale works better for this. The scale has a measurable surface area which comes in handy. Try different jets of water and spray at different angles. Straight on flat to almost nothing. That scale is about a square foot, once you start thinking about the deck and surface area of a ama and its connectives you can see the pounds of resistance adding up fast. Lifting foils reduce this effect but having the whole structure working for the goal also helps the human element. Dryer can also be faster. Try gentle spray and full on firehose then think about what parts of your structure present what kind of surface and do they help lift when submersed? Contoured section models can be measured by mounting them to a scale for those with a bigger budget.
Smaller immersed amas have less wetted surface when submerged but submerged drag is more than something on the surface so we see why everybody still is working on this. Add in the human element and remember those shapes add drag when hit by water or air. For more fun have your friends hold the scale......

 

[Silver Raven]

There is a low cost Mr Science experiment for those that need to see the power of spray using a bathroom scale in a waterproof bag and a garden hose. A digital scale works better for this. The scale has a measurable surface area which comes in handy. Try different jets of water and spray at different angles. Straight on flat to almost nothing. That scale is about a square foot, once you start thinking about the deck and surface area of a ama and its connectives you can see the pounds of resistance adding up fast. Lifting foils reduce this effect but having the whole structure working for the goal also helps the human element. Dryer can also be faster. Try gentle spray and full on firehose then think about what parts of your structure present what kind of surface and do they help lift when submersed? Contoured section models can be measured by mounting them to a scale for those with a bigger budget.
Smaller immersed amas have less wetted surface when submerged but submerged drag is more than something on the surface so we see why everybody still is working on this. Add in the human element and remember those shapes add drag when hit by water or air. For more fun have your friends hold the scale......

Gooday cav - - what would think about 'compound curved beams' - raised up out of the - spray effected area & curved down from the top of the floats - to then fit into the deck area - rather than into the side areas of the floats ??? - something like the big racing multihulls.

Seems to me that the design proving homework has already been done & proven & that the building technique has been established - even for home builders (& even for 'old-fossils like me). Doing such a modification might not fix all of the problem but I feel sure it would fix a very large percentage of the important parts - such as - wet & non cuddly partners & less drag from semi or fully submerged floats. The first being by far the most important to all cruising people - that I've ever come across. What you think, ??? Oh - where's that place again ??? - PNW something/somewhere ??? Got a handle on that joint, eh ??? Ciao, james