Winglloon

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by dreamingbarrierreef, Jun 5, 2021.

  1. dreamingbarrierreef
    Joined: Oct 2018
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    dreamingbarrierreef dreamingbarreef

    This is result of a "brainspiral" from another thread here:
    Exofish!....a WIG canoe https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/exofish-a-wig-canoe.65590/page-3

    winglloon6.png winglloon.png

    It's just a dreaming. But I thought might as well make the sketch look a bit more like a concept. The concept is a balloon can transform into a wing and a wing transforms to a balloon. The purpose? Perhaps getting to a fishing spot quicker, and has a boat (/ hover-boat) platform.

    Since I don't know of anything like this yet, I'm calling it a winglloon.

    • All the gray volumes are filled with helium, and the gas reusable, with a tank for the compressed, and to supply when transforming to the balloon form.
    • Shifting the shape changes the volume and can control the buoyancy. It's done with an internal strap system coupling the helium supply/compress system. So this should be easy to adjust to weight of loads.
    • Definitely has to be light weight & strong. Maybe CF frame structure, Hypalon, nylon string reinforce...? Let's just say this is not specified...
    • EDF, so placements are easier and system is easier.
    • There are lots of surface for solar cells, but weight penalty definitely need consideration.
    • A small generator to supply more power or to charge battery as necessary, and for emergency.
    • No, I don't know if it will fly. But if cardboards can fly this probably can too. It's just how stable. Anyway, don't ask.
    • Yah, this is definitely strictly for fair weather only.
    • Why is this a boat? Not sure. But it has a sea anchor or a few. So it can stay still at a fishing spot. It can hover just above the waves, but probably shouldn't be a problem if dip in the water either.
    I think that's as far as this dreaming goes for me. I don't think I will or have the resources to test this. But if anybody happen to be interested enough to take on this concept, should be exciting to see how it can be done.

    winglloon3.png winglloon2.png winglloon10.png
     
  2. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    It took me a while to figure out what I was looking at, but it seems you've built a box that bends around a corner in the middle ... and then you expect it to fold flat. I don't think that's possible. You'd better make a little cardboard model with tape hinges and try it.
     
  3. dreamingbarrierreef
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    dreamingbarrierreef dreamingbarreef

    Thanks for pointing out. Yah the center will need a triangular cut & join with more pieces. So the tail fin will definitely be higher & further back when folded down. There are lots more missing details. Like elevator will definitely need. And I was thinking at both front & back, on the surface rather than at rear edge (so 4 piece (front & back) on upper surface, 4 pc (front & back) lower surface). And don't think need rudder, since the EDF can do differential thrust to achieve yaw.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
  4. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    After you get done fixing that hinge problem you might consider the fact that neither of these shapes is the least bit aerodynamic, and the unsupported skin would flap and flog itself to ribbons. Also, unless the expanded version is roughly the size of a small office building, filling it with helium is going to be pretty disappointing, although it would tighten the skin, as the pressurized containment tries to assume a spherical shape. You'll need to substitute Cavorite, or perhaps unicorn farts--but once it's big enough for helium to lift it, plain old hot air would work almost as well at a fraction of the cost.

    Here's an idea: consider the old WWI aircraft--biplanes. Now delete the fuselage and just keep the wing assembly. As a starting point, that gives you two perfectly good airfoils, and you can play around with simple hinges to fold them against one another (though I'm not sure there'd be any advantage in that). You can easily build a scale model to play with.
     
  5. Dejay
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    Oh now I get it. Yeah fun idea but also not sure if such an amount of shape morphing is possible. Stretchy fabric wouldn't make a good wing then. Inflatable wings are stiffened by cloth ribs. Parafoils by lots of cords holding them in shape. I suspect the same that goes for wheels goes for reinventing the wing.

    Besides lifting gas doing too little. I mean look at how big hot air balloons are that just lift a small gondola. Just run a few basic calculations.

    Just like Saqa you'd get better feedback in an aircraft or RC aircraft forum. I do think a WIG canoe would be interesting and relevant if someone could come up with a usable and easy to build design.

    But the aerodynamics of a WIG are complex enough so better stick with conventional wings and building and start with building an RC airplane.
     
  6. dreamingbarrierreef
    Joined: Oct 2018
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    dreamingbarrierreef dreamingbarreef

    I like how Saqa said it:

    I didn't say this is going to be practical (or in most cases), or it's demonstrably not possibly a unicorn fart, or the shape and form will stay & just work as is, or it's going to work at size of a normal plane. You can tell from the size of the cabin it definitely needs to be size of a building. In fact, I mentioned in the other earlier post it needs to be in dimension of fives & tens of meters to work.

    But this is about a concept maybe a balloon can be folded to a wing, so a craft can have the abilities of unpowered liftoff and unpowered hover and faster travel by power assisted gliding all in one.

    Here is an example helium can fly:


    And I can probably tell you why they didn't use hot air. Hot air is cheap & good to lift a small gondola, but the furnace & fuel probably cost most the buoyancy already.

    I don't see why the idea can be fundamentally flawed or implausible? It could be impractical (or for most cases), but I don't see how it's implausible?

    Why assumed it will be "unsupported skin flap and flog itself to ribbons"? Why can't it have some lightweight reinforcement strands to increase rigidity? and perhaps keep some helium pressure in during wing form to make more rigid? And is it not possible to have some way to fold (mechanically) some of the loose skins into wing neatly rather than let it flog?

    Sounds like splitting hair feeling superior in an aha moment found a hole in there?

    By the same token I could also question where is the math to prove any fabric can flap and flog to ribbons at 100kt? It's a gliding wing, it's not going supersonic. And if you know about aerodynamics maybe you should elaborate why the shape is not aerodynamic rather than just guess it must be "the least bit", and why does it matter at 100kt? Of course the biplane wing can't be good for testing a balloon concept. And I did saw one of these videos used a stretchy fabric on a wing (courtesy of Dejay):
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdyZvuObNc8fL1ch97Ijh0A/videos
    (but sorry I forgot which one. other than the MFC there is another one)

    The point (and the spirit) of this is just sharing an idea, and maybe someone else could use and further build on it. Limit of yours or my imagination may not necessarily be limit of others.

    But after a few posts I do realize maybe this is not the place for these kind of outbox, untried, unproven, or unbuilt yet stuffs.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  7. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Dreaming, I am glad to see you are giving this a workout. I am taking a serious look at hot air to negate a percentage of total vessel weight direction. Lol love the wingaloon, I will call my direction the 'extramarine' i.e. above the water surface using buoyancy effects rather than under the surface like a submarine. I imagine to look like a wider and flatter than usual sub about 40' long
     
  8. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    I forgot to mention, think a flat pizza box made of fabric. now bond flat stiff plates to the two large square surfaces. tie the plates to each other at the corners and in the centre of each corner rope add a spool running off a winder mech. On wrap the plates will draw closer and unwrap further. One way I can think to make a flat box into a thick one
     
  9. dreamingbarrierreef
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    dreamingbarrierreef dreamingbarreef

    "Extramarine" I like that. Have to say you're good with cool sounding names. So I picture it's like a diamond shaped, or eagle-ray, and fairly square all sides, about 40' long. That should be fairly good size for some hot air in the air foil, and should negate some weights. I want to suggest maybe hot helium can give some performance boost? But it would have issue with diffusion. And not sure if lining Mylar inside is tough enough for marine use. Some research say graphene is the ultimate, but doesn't seem it's in production.

    I see that you mentioned submersible air prop, seem to suggest the prop will both run in water and in air. Water prop obviously won't be efficient in air, but there is also question can air props handle the kind of density and force in water. It's simpler to just use air prop and only run it above water, it will propel the same. But then CG obviously will be higher, and more thought will have to go to the balance & control in the air.

    Nice way to make the eagle-ray contour without expensive hydro-forming. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
  10. Doug Halsey
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    Doug Halsey Senior Member

    I think Bernard Smith would have called your device a "sailloon".

    Here's one of his versions of it, from his 1989 book Sailloons And Fliptackers.
    Sailloon.jpg
     
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  11. dreamingbarrierreef
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    dreamingbarrierreef dreamingbarreef

    I may argue there are similarities and there are differences. Sailloon surely rhymes well. Too bad it's taken.. I'm considering a newer hipper name.. Maybe something like "extrahoverwing"..
     
  12. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    There isn't enough volume of Helium to lift the square "balloon" which needs to be very rigid to keep the shape you designed (= very heavy), the compressor, high pressure tank, boat, crew, etc. Do the numbers for the volume of Helium you would need to lift all the stuff.
     

  13. dreamingbarrierreef
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    dreamingbarrierreef dreamingbarreef

    No it's not meant to 'strictly' stay square, what shape the balloon form assumes really doesn't matter. Shape, or maybe rigidity, during wing form matters more. But soft wing like hang-gliders should work just fine, using frame to more or less keep it a wing. Keeping some helium pressure in the wing will help the frame a lot. Reinforcement fiber strands will also help. If the dimension is for example 10m x 10m x 20m x 2, it's ~4 tons lift; 15m x 15m x 30m x 2 you get ~13.5 tons. So if the math for the structure, tank & pump can float, other loads can just cover by size. Weight of the tank is major issue indeed. 400 bars is already pushing the envelop even for composite. Hot helium could help to boost the performance, and reduce the amount of gas needed, but then it becomes even more tricky to keep it in; and to compress.. Definitely a lot of devils in details, but still think it's plausible.

    Or alternative design can be just make two of the wing surfaces and expand vertical to get the balloon. Will need a bit more frame & stiffer frame, but for twice the volume (& size), probably well worth it. However, it means the z aspect is shorter to both the x & y, rather than just one. So not sure if that matters until it's tested. (Normally balloons are taller than wide, even airships are not completely flat..)

    I should also add this is not a design sketch, it's just a rough idea sketch; or so called concept sketch.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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