Exofish!....a WIG canoe

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Saqa, May 27, 2021.

  1. Dejay
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    To be honest I question that too, and wouldn't look forward to explaining this to the water police. But this is as far as my curiosity got me and it doesn't look totally hopeless. As long as it demonstrably cannot fly above ground effect.
     
  2. Dejay
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    Saqa, another thing you could look up is "Bixel WIG". There are a ton of videos and experiments in the RC range you can find. But I didn't find a single example that translated into a single person "wig canoe" that actually works and one could build.
    I was thinking a WIG might be good for having a large wing surface to install lots of solar cells to recharge your batteries. But besides all the practical considerations (not usable in rough sea states) the efficiency of a WIG craft might actually be less than an efficient ultralight aircraft.

    And from a sustainability standpoint a powered hang glider with inflatable with a used engine is probably much less pollution over it's lifetime.

    Check out the youtube channel "Electric Aviation" which has a rather grounded approach compared to all the pop-sci hype surrounding the topic. It gives you an idea of how hard the topic of electric aviation is and what kind of engineering and how many years it takes. It's not impossible but you'd need to delve deep into the engineering and use various software besides CAD like OpenFOAM or XFLR5.

    Theoretically for your use case something like the opener blackfly could be ideal and it's amphibious, vertical take off and quite efficient because it's ultralight. But it only has a range of 40 miles with 12kWh. Adding 24kWh to that would add like 100kg so your range would then again be less than 120 miles (~200km).

    Also forget about using lifting gasses like airships (see above channel).

    There are some concepts for inflatable wing aircraft like the WoopyFly. Maybe one could combine an ultralight canoe with inflatable wings for a WIG craft.
     
  3. dreamingbarrierreef
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    dreamingbarrierreef dreamingbarreef

    throwing physics, engineering & math out for a minute, this could be what a balloonwing looks like:
    balloonwing0.png balloonwing1.png
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  4. dreamingbarrierreef
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    dreamingbarrierreef dreamingbarreef

    ah.. the dimension probably in fives or tens of meters?
     
  5. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I think that the statement that it is considered a boat is misleading. It took me about 2 minutes to find the information. The train of thought that it is a boat is wrong; that is what I pointed out. I have no problem with the technology though.
    Wing-in-Ground (WIG) craft https://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Safety/Pages/WIG.aspx
     
  6. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    For some of us, it sometimes appears to be a bit insulting or illogical to assume that no one else has been smart enough or imaginative enough to come up with the "FoF", if it was remotely workable. Perhaps it's also that discussion about FoFs are often expressed in a rather limiting way; that is, when people say "the FoF won't work because of X factor and Y laws of physics", the fans of the FoF try to limit the conversation by saying "ignore that limit". Telling someone to ignore an issue is limiting that person's input and the way their own imagination works.

    A lot of the time, the underlying assumption seems to be that the person who has come up with the "FoF" is smarter than anyone else in history. It's as if they believe that other people are limited in imagination, whereas they may in fact have MORE imagination than the person who proposes the concept, which is why they can see the issues.

    Some people's imagination just works in a way that allows them to see issues with concepts. That's an incredibly valuable skill. Why limit it? Shouldn't the truly imaginative person with the truly imaginative idea welcome input that contains useful information or ideas?
     
    cracked_ribs and Ad Hoc like this.
  7. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    The problem here is that errors could result in a visit to the ICU or morgue, ultra-light aircraft don't come without risks, and it seems to me the risk comes from the uneven nature of the landing ground, and the difficulty in taking off from it, when choppy, you would think you'd be obliged to head upwind to land, straight into the chop, otherwise you would need to maintain a high over-the-ground speed to land downwind, and who wants to hit the curly water at high speed even though the wave encounter is not as forceful. You can't win either way
     
  8. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    I fail to see the imaginative input in a contention over terminology, do you?
     
  9. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Or it can drop gently straight down :) How much of the above will be relevant then? It seems to me that we are actually working through various concepts and iterations to actually make a lot of those a non issue. Will be much appreciated hearing more ideas to this end

    Mr E, surly someone as observant as you must have noticed the directions we headed and how the WIG is getting left behind?
     
  10. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    It's more than terminology. If it's considered an aircraft there are often very different rules that apply. Many of those rules are far more stringent than for boating. For example for the use you want, you'll may need to get "RAAus Float (WF) or Floating Hull (WH) Endorsement, as appropriate to the aeroplane design" and "a minimum of 50 hours pilot in command of a recreational aeroplane of the same Group as the endorsement is sought" for low level flying (to name just one requirement) as well as getting qualifications for "cross country flight" and "passenger carrying".

    And of course for the craft itself, if it's a home-made experimental aircraft then you'll need;

    "knowledgeable persons (ie., LAMEs, SAAA Technical Counsellors, professional engineers, GFA glider inspectors, etc.) perform pre-closure inspections and other inspections as appropriate. In addition, builders should document the construction using photographs taken at appropriate times prior to covering. The photographs should clearly show 5 AC 21.4(2): Amateur-built experimental aircraft – certification September 2000 methods of construction and quality of workmanship. Such photographic records should be included with the builder's log or other construction records; (b) the authorised person or CASA inspector will conduct an inspection of the aircraft prior to the issue of the initial CASA Form No 720 “Special Airworthiness Certificate” to enable the applicant to demonstrate compliance with the requirements of CAR 1988 262AP(3). This inspection will include a review of the information required by CASR 21.193, the aircraft builder's logbook, and an examination of the completed aircraft as per paragraphs 6.3 and 6.4 above; and (c) the authorised person" and lots more.

    You'll have to work out weight, balance, structure, etc. You're advised to check, at least "AC 43.13-lA, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection and Repair, and AC 43.13-2A, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Alterations.".

    Then of course the initial testing will have to be done by a licensed pilot with the proper endorsements, maintenance will have to be carried out to the correct standards (I know at least some bolts etc are individually tested and identified, for example), you'll have to have it certified for noise levels, yada yada yada yada yada.

    This is FAR from being "just terminology".
     
  11. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Actually I do not recall anything like that in Gonzo's post. Comes across to me more like getting sidetracked trying to give terms to something not even defined yet. Now I will have a little poke :D , lol all that would literally be "imaginative input" as I would have to imagine all that you said here in a contention over names. Do you really feel a licensed pilot would be required to lift a hot air RIB a metre or two over sea level in a thinking exercise? Thats where the spiral has reached currently

    I believe a good way to come up with something new is to first think about "what will get the job done" and then look up all those aspects to see if it can be turned into reality

    Example, It you need a repeating alternating two notes for a particular cultural music from my background. Really the only thing that will get the job done is a drum set made from one male and one female human skull. Then you would look up what laws would apply to this and find out that it would be illegal in most countries. Then you look to see if a usable alternative can be found.... but here we are getting hung up on what to call the instrument even before what instrument can get the job done. I find it annoying that you support that derailment process
     
  12. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Using your analogy, this seems like saying "well the use of human skulls may be illegal but anyone who points that out should be dissed for doing so, because I'd rather we keep on talking about the use of skulls despite the fact that such talk is irrelevant because no one can do it".

    What I was doing was "looking up all those aspects to see if it can be turned into reality". What that "looking up" showed was that in area where a WIG is classified as a plane as Gonzo believes, then this idea probably cannot be turned into reality without major problems. That seems to be exactly what you say should be done.

    I find it annoying that you try to restrict what relevant issues others can bring up on a forum, especially when some of them are just "looking up all those aspects to see if it can be turned into reality" in a practical manner.
     
  13. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Man, this isn't my first language, but I think I have a firm handle on it. You are incorrect because we didn't even get to "skulls would get the job done" part before fighting over whether it's a drum or not!

    WIG was raised as a probable solution and then placed on the shelf with safety concerns and more ideas explored. What part of this is not apparent?
     
  14. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    In case you missed it, this is where my thinking process is now. It's now a theoretical question of whether a hot air assisted elongated RIB can physically get the job done and how would something like that be executed
    Fly a boat exercise https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/fly-a-boat-exercise.65617/

    1 - If a craft like that cant get the job done theoretically then why would I start getting bogged down researching all the regulations including registration process and licensed pilot testing and such?

    2 - What is the problem with keeping on topic? If you did miss that, it's basically thinking up a device that can travel quicker and safer across a 70km bay width than traditional boat forms
     

  15. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    That chop on Hervey Bay rattling the bones ? Probably easier to get a better riding boat.
     
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