Unlimited C Class Sailboat Racing Rule (UCCSRR?)

[Doug Lord]

The C-Class will have a meeting during the I4C in Newport this year. Part of the meeting will be devoted to deciding what needs to be changed or tightened up to ensure that the class remains viable and grows. I think the the appendages the Rocker's rudder blades are on will no longer be allowed. There is talk also of restricting the daggerboards so that when raised they cannot exceed b-max. I do not know what else they will be discussing, but I think it would not be to considr an unlimited C-Class. I also think that to do what you propose, you should look at designing a 25 footer without looking specifically at the C-class.

-------------------
You can see in other places in this thread that the C Class has been a speed sailing class limited to 300sq.ft. and thats it-open to cats,tris ect.. I like the basic rules of the C Class cat in that the number of crew is specified, length is specified and course racing is specified. I don't like the beam restriction or the limitation to catamarans for the "new" class in order to allow a wider range of fast boats to compete. I visualize the new class as the most technically advanced in sailing-in order for that to happen the beam rule has to be relaxed to allow a hydroptere-like configuration to be able to race. I personally think a much narrower boat will prove fastest but I think the rule should be as open as necessary to allow what is known to be potentially fast, in addition to cats, to compete-changing the beam restriction allows that within a basic framework that seems ideal. C Class cats could compete as they are (or slightly modified) in the new class but modern state of the art designs that aren't catamarans would also be encouraged.
This would be an extraordinary class with state of the art boats and would likely generate an awfull lot of excitement.

 

[TTS]

Doug,

I have an A-Cat that has two sets of beam and a Tornado with the same. I have 12 foot beams for a Tornado and 9 foot for an A-cat. I did this to look at what differences the beams made in performance or to look at what you are proposing (but well before now). I modified both rigs only by adding a spinnaker to each platform. While you get greater righting moment, it only helps when the wind speed increases beyond the point where the 7'6" or 10' respectively is overpowered. If I played with a greater main and jib combination with a tall rig, then that would play into the greater beam requirements. You do loose some with increased weight and it hinders your tacking ability with the wider configuration. I still think that to approach with the thought of making ICCC an unlimited class is the wrong approach. I do not know about other c-class projects beyond a couple of trimarans early on and always believed that the c-class that we are speaking of here comes from the early IYRU box rules of A,B,C & D class. To me those were initially L,B and Sail area for the rules. It seemed that they were speaking in terms of catamarans at that time, but again we did see some trimarans early on. The Tornado is a B-Class Catamaran, but so are the Hobie 14 and 16. B-Class- LOA M-20', B-Max 10', Sail Area 150sq' max. All three meet this. I suppose that many monohulls fit within this criteria, but intially these box rules were written for multihulls. I do not have any idea why any monohull would want to be described as a c-class instead of a J-24 or a Catalina 22 and so-on.

 

[Doug Lord]

Doug,
I do not have any idea why any monohull would want to be described as a c-class instead of a J-24 or a Catalina 22 and so-on.

------------------
Well, the pictures below are one reason. Let me explain: the Moth has demonstrated over the years that in foiling conditions it is faster than any cat under 20'. And, of course, you know that it is only 11' long and it is a monohull. If someone had asked me in 1968 whether I thought a monohull the same length as a cat would ever beat a cat I would have said no-much less one smaller than all the cats! Thats why I don't think cats represent the highest technological level that I once believed they did and why a class that allows(read encourages) monohulls, tris ect. to race together-same length-same sail area-same crew-same course would be the best type of class to represent the highest level of sailing technology. And the C Class cat or modified version thereof might win the first few years(but I doubt it).
The C Class Cat has been the dominant technology demonstrator for sailing for a long time, but there are new technologies that for the sake of sailing and technological progress should be given a fair shot.
------

Doug,

I still think that to approach with the thought of making ICCC an unlimited class is the wrong approach. .

That is not the approach I am proposing. I don't want to interfere with, be part of or change the ICCCC in any way whatsoever. I am proposing a rule for a whole new class that would be structured so that C Class catamarans could race if they wanted to and so that new tech boats could also race. A techno development class whose rules encompass all that is known now about fast design. All of the best of sailing technology racing in one class-it would teach us all a lot and probably produce some startling discoveries.



pix:26' Mirabaud,Moth

 

[peterraymond]

You can't get there from here

I admit that I'm repeating myself, but I don't think there is much chance of the C-class taking off. Initially the only boats you might race against only meet every couple years, if that often.

A-Class actually has fleets in at least a few places in the world and if an A trimaran or mono-foiler showed up I suspect that at least some informal racing would happen. Even then though, fairly quickly, everyone would figure out the fastest option and any serious sailors would conform.

B-class would let you race against Tornados, but that's kind of a dead end.

Maybe C would work for an ocean racing class. Is there any ocean racing class that already allows all options? I worry about weight though. Hydrofoils seem pretty weight sensitive to me and the foils have to be pretty tall to sail in big waves.

If someone wanted to build a foiler what would make sense? If you don't want to build another Moth, aren't there any other choices? There must be close to zero local foiler fleets, other than Moths. Next best choice is a development class.

 

[Doug Lord]

I admit that I'm repeating myself, but I don't think there is much chance of the C-class taking off. Initially the only boats you might race against only meet every couple years, if that often.

A-Class actually has fleets in at least a few places in the world and if an A trimaran or mono-foiler showed up I suspect that at least some informal racing would happen. Even then though, fairly quickly, everyone would figure out the fastest option and any serious sailors would conform.

B-class would let you race against Tornados, but that's kind of a dead end.

Maybe C would work for an ocean racing class. Is there any ocean racing class that already allows all options? I worry about weight though. Hydrofoils seem pretty weight sensitive to me and the foils have to be pretty tall to sail in big waves.

If someone wanted to build a foiler what would make sense? If you don't want to build another Moth, aren't there any other choices? There must be close to zero local foiler fleets, other than Moths. Next best choice is a development class.

=========
Maybe Gary will tell us more about the boat he wants to build. The A Class Cat has been beaten numerous times in foiling conditions by a much smaller monofoiler over the last 5 years. There are C Class cats that are already refined to a great degree and including them in the rule is important in order to serve as a benchmark. It would be a huge mistake not to concoct a rule that includes them AND the rest of modern high speed sailing design.
I envision this new class to be built by syndicates and raced every 2-4 years-its not meant to be a populist class but one built by syndicates. Its meant to be a technology development class encompassing all modern fast sailing technology within modest parameters.

 

[Gary Baigent]

I've posted this stuff on my fantasy U C Class tri foiler before - but here are a few images. For a start I just **** around, not intending to establish a different type of C Class - but such a craft sounds very interesting and I like fooling around and occasionally sailing fast. Remember how Meade and Jan Gougeon upset the early C Class cats with their ultra light C trimaran in One of a Kind regattas - the class should have kept on with that theme ... and C Class would be larger today in terms of boat numbers. But then maybe they wanted an exclusive class with a small band of expert sailors, designs and constructors. Just IMO. The wing rig on the Demon tri looks pretty low by BMW-O standards ... but I'll start with that, or maybe a fraction higher.

 

[Doug Lord]

I've posted this stuff on my fantasy U C Class tri foiler before - but here are a few images. For a start I just **** around, not intending to establish a different type of C Class - but such a craft sounds very interesting and I like fooling around and occasionally sailing fast. Remember how Meade and Jan Gougeon upset the early C Class cats with their ultra light C trimaran in One of a Kind regattas - the class should have kept on with that theme ... and C Class would be larger today in terms of boat numbers. But then maybe they wanted an exclusive class with a small band of expert sailors, designs and constructors. Just IMO. The wing rig on the Demon tri looks pretty low by BMW-O standards ... but I'll start with that, or maybe a fraction higher.

=====================
I remember seeing those-just fantastic. Didn't realize it was 25' or so-what are the dimensions? Three element wing,right? Whats your estimate on all up weight?

 

[Gary Baigent]

Square, 3 element, who knows, aim for 200 kgs, rig height 11-12 metres.

 

[Doug Lord]

Just checked overall B/L including foils=1.3 which fits in the proposed rule perfectly. Congratulations, you have the first Unlimited C Class design of 2010! Are there any C Class cats down there ,Gary-somebody you could trial against?

For reference: according to Steve Killing Alpha-last Little America's Cup winner weighed 750lb/340.9kg all up with crew. *Hull,foils and rig for Alpha=360lb/163.63kg)

 

[Gary Baigent]

You're getting too far ahead of reality Doug - that is virtually a ******** piece of drawings, a fantasy at this stage. By the way the overall beam does not include the foils - so the dreamtime platform will be oversquare.

 

[Doug Lord]

You're getting too far ahead of reality Doug - that is virtually a ******** piece of drawings, a fantasy at this stage. By the way the overall beam does not include the foils - so the dreamtime platform will be oversquare.

-----------------
Got to start somewhere Gary-the rule is a fantasy at this point-so what? It's discussions like this that could result in some concrete development down the line. I measured the beam of your boat, including the foils, roughly off the one sketch-came out that beam including foils was 1.3 times length and Hydroptere is 1.36.
Your boat fits right in....at the maximum end of the spectrum.

 

[Paul B]

You're getting too far ahead of reality Doug - that is virtually a ******** piece of drawings, a fantasy at this stage.

Congrats Gary.

Regardless of your protest you will be mentioned on message boards for the next 5 years or so, with comments about how you are one of the "many" building a boat to this non-existent rule.

 

[Doug Lord]

1) What is really funny about this entire thread is there is already an unlimited C Class available. Both of the top C Class Cat teams have already responded to Doug and told him if he buiilds something with 300 sq ft of sail + spar they will happily race against him. If he did that I would happily provide a perpetual trophy for the event.

2) All he has to do is just build a boat and race the existing teams and he could get more publicity for the new "class" than simply posting on the internet.

===================
1) Absolutely wrong-not within the meaning of the rule proposed in this thread which is 100% unique.
from post #1:
This is a basic rule for racing sailboats 25' long with 300 sq' of sail area and a maximum beam of 34'. The rule would not limit participants to any type of sailboat-multihulls and monohulls could compete. Foils would be legal as would be anything not specifically restricted below. The rule idea is inspired by a discussion in the Moth on Foils thread and by the International C Class Catamaran Rule. My interest is that I'm convinced that a C Class catamaran is no longer the fastest type of sailboat POSSIBLE 25' long.
The beam restriction is high so as not to limit the type of boat that might compete and is based on the overall B/L ratio of Hydroptere. My gut feeling is that the winning boat to this Rule will be considerably narrower. The course sailing requirement is to make sure that this Unlimited C Class Rule does not evolve to a straight line, speed racing, one tack fits all, boat type.

How about:
--LOA 25'
--Beam 34'(max) or 1.36 times length
--Weight unrestricted
--SA 300 sq.ft.
--crew 2
--must be raced on a course( specific-like windward leeward or triangle windward leeward)
--minimum wind speed for a regatta-5 knots
--maximum wind speed-25 knots
Not limited to foilers or multihulls-no other restrictions
---
There is NO rule currently in use that has these provisions. That's why the rule was proposed! There is no organized racing of high tech sailboats within these limited constraints. There is no OPEN rule with these limited constraints that allows any type of sailboat-monohull,multihull, foiler, proa, schooner, etc to compete.
==================================
2) This is a very good idea and would be well received thanks to the openess of Steve Clark and Fredo to such an event. But it is important to achieve some sort of concensus as to what the parameters of an "OPEN" or "UNLIMITED" boat might be that would also include the C Class cats in its parameters. Learning from them is the stepping off point of this rule and thats why it is of critical importance to come up with a viable "OPEN"/"UNLIMITED" rule.

26' Mirabaud foiler-close to right for this rule:

 

[Paul B]

===================
1) Absolutely false-

The fact remains:

The two highest performance closed course boats that qualify in the IYRU C Class have invited you (or anyone) to put together a boat that will fit the IYRU definition of C Class and meet them on the water.

They have no stipulation on sailplan, number of hulls, weight, foils, multiple foils, beam, etc. Build the better mousetrap and come beat up on them. Everyone learns something, win or lose.

You have no ability to do this, so instead you ramble on and on and on and on and on and on about nothing in these internet forums.

 

[bistros]

===================
1) Absolutely wrong-
<snip> blah, blah, blah
2) This is a very good idea
<snip> blah, blah, blah

1. Here is some help to understand the concepts of "de facto" and "de jure". There is no "de jure" rule in place as recognized by the IYRU, but there is a "de facto" acceptance by all the players that matter on the field all ready. Basically since Fredo and Steve are willing to play, there is no need for further complication.

2. Since the two contenders in the class are already in consensus with Doug's proposed contest, this is completely redundant.

--
Bill