Unlimited C Class Sailboat Racing Rule (UCCSRR?)

[peterraymond]

Just say no

A couple realistic good posts from CT. The world has always had too many sailboat classes and probably too many development classes too. How many 2 person one design classes are there in the world? That would be an interesting list.

Most sailors, perhaps excluding this list, are interested in sailing, not designing or building. Even among the people who are interested in building a boat, most are not so interested in designing a boat from scratch, but more in the processes, the craftsmanship and enjoying the result. Among the now small number of people who are interested in designing and building a boat, how many want to build the fastest, lightest most advanced boat ever and have all of the skills and resources to do that?

Still, because there are a lot of people on this small world, there are people capable of pushing the state of the art in Moths, C-Class cats, the AC and a significant number of other development classes, just not an infinite number. Maybe new development classes should only be added as others die.

If there were going to be one or more new classes, I think A class would be a better place to start. C class has never had enough people in it. I think though I'd keep the current A class cats and have parallel tri and foiler classes. Then maybe there could be some kind of annual competition in each class followed by an AC style contest between the three winners.

 

[Doug Lord]

I think an "Open C Class" that reflects what is currently known about fast sailboat design would be great new development class. Using the same basic rules as the C Class Catamaran -except for the beam limitation- the class would foster new design and C Class cats would be part of it from the start.
I think the A Class might be interesting if it was structured like the C Class Cat rules except no beam limitation and no minimum weight-just length and SA and the requirement to sail a course-not just straight line racing. Of course, we already know that an 11' Moth foiler will beat an A class around a course in foiling conditions.....

A Class Catamaran rules:

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ACAT2010CR100104-[8182].pdf

 

[Chris Ostlind]

... The world has always had too many sailboat classes and probably too many development classes too. How many 2 person one design classes are there in the world? That would be an interesting list...

So, let's just pretend that you are the omniscient God of the sailboat world for the next few days...

Which classes would you see fit to dump forever, which ones would stay and which ones would you ad, if any? Actually, I guess that the adding of classes thing runs totally contrary to the statement, "The world has always had too many sailboat classes", but since you're the God, give it a rip, anyway.

Being a God, of course, would not normally require you to provide substantiation for your acts, but this body would probably like to know the reasoning.... if only to start a wooly and extended argument. ;-)

 

[Doug Lord]

Rather than get into arguments about God-lets try to keep the thread on the topic it was started to discuss. Thanks.

Post #1:

This is a basic rule for racing sailboats 25' long with 300 sq' of sail area and a maximum beam of 34'. The rule would not limit participants to any type of sailboat-multihulls and monohulls could compete. Foils would be legal as would be anything not specifically restricted below. The rule idea is inspired by a discussion in the Moth on Foils thread and by the International C Class Catamaran Rule. My interest is that I'm convinced that a C Class catamaran is no longer the fastest type of sailboat POSSIBLE 25' long.
The beam restriction is high so as not to limit the type of boat that might compete and is based on the L/B ratio of Hydroptere. My gut feeling is that the winning boat to this Rule will be considerably narrower. The course sailing requirement is to make sure that this Unlimited C Class Rule does not evolve to a straight line, speed racing, one tack fits all, boat type.

How about:
--LOA 25'
--Beam 34'(max) or 1.36 times length
--Weight unrestricted
--SA 300 sq.ft.
--crew 2
--must be raced on a course( specific-like windward leeward or triangle windward leeward)
--minimum wind speed for a regatta-5 knots
--maximum wind speed-25 knots
Not limited to foilers or multihulls-no other restrictions

==========================
Comments and individual ideas of what might be fast could lead to a fun and interesting discussion...

 

[bistros]

A couple realistic good posts from CT. The world has always had too many sailboat classes and probably too many development classes too.

<snip>

If there were going to be one or more new classes, I think A class would be a better place to start. C class has never had enough people in it. I think though I'd keep the current A class cats and have parallel tri and foiler classes. Then maybe there could be some kind of annual competition in each class followed by an AC style contest between the three winners.

+1

What we have here is one person obsessed with inciting other people to act out his own fantasies. Rather than actually build things and spend his own time & money, why not propose scenarios where many other people build and spend?

Why can't we let this thread die? We've already had a past C Class champion and current contender indicate no interest in furthering this discussion.

--
Bill

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Rather than get into arguments about God

Other than the fact that the comment was not about God at all.....

Peter, feel free to contribute your ideas on the subject of class proliferation, anyway. If you like, send them along to me offlist. Perhaps we can start another thread about the issues of having too many sailboat classes?

At this point, I'm tending to agree with Bill on this thread's purpose and what ends it might yield. This whole thing was pranced about last year over on Sailing Anarchy. Steve Clark had the same response then as he posted early in the flow of this effort at BD.net in post #14 on page 1.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/unlimited-c-class-sailboat-racing-rule-uccsrr-31154.html

Doug, as for the possibilities.... Why not just accept the challenge/invitation set forth by both Clark and Fredo at different times and just build this "gotta have it" world beater boat and get out on the water. Nothing like proving to the two leaders in the C-Class, that they have had it all wrong all these years...

Other than that eventuality, there's really no reason to perpetuate this discussion. By the way, how's that 21 foot test bed machine going? Will we be seeing it soon?

 

[Doug Lord]

+1

What we have here is one person obsessed with inciting other people to act out his own fantasies. Rather than actually build things and spend his own time & money, why not propose scenarios where many other people build and spend?

Why can't we let this thread die? We've already had a past C Class champion and current contender indicate no interest in furthering this discussion.

--
Bill

------------------------
If you're referring to me then your comment is 100% false.
What we have here is a suggestion for a new ,expanded version of the C Class catamaran rule that would allow a wider range of modern sailboat design technology to compete in a class designed to draw out the most innovative sailboat designs possible in a way I used to think the C Class cats did. Now ,given the new developments in sailing technology the C Class cat probably no longer represents the fastest 25' sailboat with 300 sq.ft. of sail. Its time to modernize the category and allow all of modern sailboat technology to compete in one class.

 

[tspeer]

Fixed Height

There's one kind of box rule that I've not seen in practice - unlimited sail area, but limited mast height. Perhaps the Chesapeake log canoes come closest to this approach.

Unlimited sail area makes for entertaining crew work and visually interesting boats. It's also fun for the sailors. It can help even out the performance between different wind conditions. With enough sail area, the boats can move in light winds and get off races in a wider range of conditions.

However, adding sail also adds drag as well as power, so there is a natural limit to the efficiency of the boats. This will help to keep the speeds similar between the designs of a development class, making for good racing.

The same with righting moment, whether it comes from ballast in the keel or the platform size of a multihull - one can push a bigger, heavier hull with more sail area, but the efficiency drops off and there may not be much of a gain in speed. The size of the yacht would be come self-limiting even if the hull had no restrictions. The result would be a very conservative rig for the size of the hull according to modern standards, which would have a natural seaworthiness. With fixed sail area, the rigs naturally want to grow higher for performance, leading to very tender boats.

In some ways it's a throwback to earlier types of sailboats. But when you think of images from, say, the Rosenfeld collection, the most popular pictures are the ones where the boats are spreading clouds of canvas. An unlimited sail area development class would have great spectator appeal.

And I think such a class would have the best chance of developing technology that can trickle down to our every-day boats. I think the trickle-down aspect is one that is under-appreciated when considering high-end events like the America's Cup. The prospect of being able to sell products is what makes it worthwhile for companies to sponsor the teams. Technology development, yes, but not just any form of sailing technology. Rigid wing sails are great technology, but are a bit of a dead end with regard to where the technology goes from there. However sailcloth, sail shapes, and new rigging is something that can be retrofitted immediately to cruiser/racers. The same for winches, blocks, electronics, etc. In this regard, the use of 12 Meter boats for the AC was highly relevant to the every-day sailor, because the 12s were not that much of a stretch from the typical yacht in the marina.

 

[Doug Lord]

There's one kind of box rule that I've not seen in practice - unlimited sail area, but limited mast height.

--------------
I like it but wouldn't you think it would result in a tremendous increase in cost? Of course, the "natural" restraints you mention might regulate that. Very interesting idea.
Would you want to see the 2 crew limit and 25' LOA limit? And a max beam limit corresponding to the overall B/L of Hydroptere of about 1.36?

 

[Cheesy]

There's one kind of box rule that I've not seen in practice - unlimited sail area, but limited mast height. Perhaps the Chesapeake log canoes come closest to this approach.

The open 8.5s in NZ have a maximum air draft

http://crew.org.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8394

 

[bistros]

There's one kind of box rule that I've not seen in practice - unlimited sail area, but limited mast height. Perhaps the Chesapeake log canoes come closest to this approach.

Unlimited sail area makes for entertaining crew work and visually interesting boats. It's also fun for the sailors. It can help even out the performance between different wind conditions. With enough sail area, the boats can move in light winds and get off races in a wider range of conditions.

However, adding sail also adds drag as well as power, so there is a natural limit to the efficiency of the boats. This will help to keep the speeds similar between the designs of a development class, making for good racing.

The same with righting moment, whether it comes from ballast in the keel or the platform size of a multihull - one can push a bigger, heavier hull with more sail area, but the efficiency drops off and there may not be much of a gain in speed. The size of the yacht would be come self-limiting even if the hull had no restrictions. The result would be a very conservative rig for the size of the hull according to modern standards, which would have a natural seaworthiness. With fixed sail area, the rigs naturally want to grow higher for performance, leading to very tender boats.

In some ways it's a throwback to earlier types of sailboats. But when you think of images from, say, the Rosenfeld collection, the most popular pictures are the ones where the boats are spreading clouds of canvas. An unlimited sail area development class would have great spectator appeal.

And I think such a class would have the best chance of developing technology that can trickle down to our every-day boats. I think the trickle-down aspect is one that is under-appreciated when considering high-end events like the America's Cup. The prospect of being able to sell products is what makes it worthwhile for companies to sponsor the teams. Technology development, yes, but not just any form of sailing technology. Rigid wing sails are great technology, but are a bit of a dead end with regard to where the technology goes from there. However sailcloth, sail shapes, and new rigging is something that can be retrofitted immediately to cruiser/racers. The same for winches, blocks, electronics, etc. In this regard, the use of 12 Meter boats for the AC was highly relevant to the every-day sailor, because the 12s were not that much of a stretch from the typical yacht in the marina.

Finally, an idea that makes more sense.

I wrote a response to Doug outlining how his UCCSRR was not getting positive response, but just deleted it because there is no point in trying.

Trying to stretch C Class rules in one dimension (beam) to facilitate high righting moment foilers obviously isn't a crowd pleaser. In almost a month and a half no one has cried out "Eureka!, that's what I want to build!".

Your idea of a much simpler box makes sense, and also scaling the dimensions of the box to fit budgetary sensitivities as Paul B. suggests is a great idea. Many more people would be willing to play in the "A" sized space.

Technology for technology's sake isn't necessarily fun, affordable or easy to connect with. Especially when that technology is being bent to fit fit rules that don't share anything that is relevant to the audience. 28' foot wide 25' foot boats with 300 square feet of sail might be fast, but my club would mighty upset with the footprint in the dinghy yard. They'd be a ***** to get down the ramp as well. Ernesto can afford a helicopter as a launch hoist, but no one I know can.

I don't know about anyone else, but my skiff sailing interests were first caused by pictures of classic eighteens flying more sail than anyone should. Who cares how many crew? Who cares how wide? Set the length, and let the rest sort itself out. Once you define the length, the rest of the dimensions/issues will be sorted automagically.

Fun and affordable to compete is really, really important. The wilder and the less structured the better.

--
Bill

 

[peterraymond]

6m class

There's one kind of box rule that I've not seen in practice - unlimited sail area, but limited mast height.

A laser has a 20' mast height, or 6m. Something near there might be a reasonable limit for the smallest class of this type.

I think though that it would become a weight watchers class. For a 6m class I imagine a very light 16' cat with an Opti sailor on a trapeze. A very light boat and a very light sailor means low platform drag, so you don't need much power. Not needing power means you can increase L/D and with that, get higher speeds. Maybe you need a minimum weight.

Or, you could just sail a Moth, since the mast is limited at 6.25. a slight modification of the sail plan makes you legal.

You want to be careful on the mast height limit too. A C-Class cat wing is only around twice 6m tall.

 

[Gary Baigent]

You blokes are often referring to the great wide footprint of multihulls - step aside from your set in epoxy, or should I say concrete, fixed viewpoint - What is the one of the great advantage of multihulls? .... shallow water, you can moor the ******** in shallow water, screw your marinas - and if you're really concerned about cost in unlimited A or C Class, thinking outside the square regarding marinas will save you a packet, big gain there immediately. However you might get your feet wet occasionally. Also these size type boats will not be in marinas anyway but will be mostly trailered.
Returning to a true anarchist's viewpoint (whoops, wrong site) I like the unlimited non rule idea, let the crews and the boats sort themselves out. Look at what BMW-O did with wide open thinking - the best thing that has happened to multihulls for decades. And it will be talked about, or alternatively moaned about by the flat earth society, for decades. But it has got everyones attention.
One outstanding point to remember: the bar has been lifted a mile high regarding rig heights with the big Beemer, 115 foot overall length - DOUBLE that for mast height. Incroyable! Never been done before. Makes the stubby rigs on the esteemed local NZ 8.5's look ridiculous. Not saying that U A/C Class should achieve that rig height proportion, would quickly sort itself out in destruction derby, but so what? Bring on an open rule. When I finish my fast rowing skiff, I'm definitely going to build a U C Class tri foiler.

 

[Doug Lord]

Finally, an idea that makes more sense.

1) 28' foot wide 25' foot boats with 300 square feet of sail might be fast, but my club would mighty upset with the footprint in the dinghy yard. They'd be a ***** to get down the ramp as well. Ernesto can afford a helicopter as a launch hoist, but no one I know can.


2) Fun and affordable to compete is really, really important. The wilder and the less structured the better.

--
Bill

------------------
1) I seriously doubt that a boat that wide with only 300 sq.ft of sail would compete with a much narrower monofoiler. The beam is essentially unlimited to allow configurations like Hydroptere to be tried. But the SA restriction, the course requirements, the two crew requirement and the wind limits are natural regulators.
2) This is a high tech class to be built by syndicates-it is not a boat for the average sailor-at least as a first priority.
---------
I think it is important that existing C Class cats be able to compete in this class-they have reached a pinnacle of design that will be a benchmark to measure everything else by. If the new class was so different that the C Class could not compete then we lose all that knowledge from a comparative standpoint.
The extra beam is to allow experimental design but the fact is the C Class has pretty well got it worked out for a 25' boat with 300sq.ft SA and 2 crew around a course. It would be very, very, difficult to build a wider boat within
a weight range that could be competitive with a C Class but it would be interesting. My bet is that a much narrower monofoiler would be the boat to beat eventually.

 

[bistros]

How about a dose of reality?

Unless you inherit millions or win a lottery and are willing to put enough economic incentive up front to make it worthwhile, no boats will be designed and built to this design rule. No one cares, unless you are willing to pay them to care. No one is asking the question you want answered except you.

You've had some good feedback here: Scale down the concept to financially plausible to more people -and- consider using a different box rule to make the resulting boats interesting to more people. You've chosen as usual to ignore both Paul B. and Tom Speer's input.

--
Bill