Turning a 747-200 into a hybrid powered trimaran

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by pansalacia, Sep 27, 2010.

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  1. pansalacia
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    pansalacia Junior Member

    I have been working on an idea recently of turning a 747-100/200 into a powered trimaran.
    i have always believed in reuse before recycle.
    and the distinctive shape and aluminum construction leads the imagination and question of if it's possible for such a conversion.
    although i am an architect by training, i am not versed in 3d cad programs to develop proper modeling like many that have been presented on this forum.

    I would sincerely appreciate help in developing proper 3d models for presenting my ideas.
    Any advise on structural limitation, hull design and requirements to convert an airplane hull into a high speed trimaran is also appreciated.

    I choose a 747 because it is recognizable, it's cheap to get a stripped hull, and as a potential business to develop and build more, there are over 150 planes believed due for retiring in the coming years as more efficient planes become available.

    i have chosen the 100 and 200 series of the 747 is because the configuration i wish to achieve cuts the fuselage at front of the wing box and flipping the fuselage. by having this configuration i can use the structure to support the 2 sidepods. and by flipping it, the shortened wings now can also support wing sails.

    the wings are cut off at the support for the engine closest to the fuselage on each side.
    i can imagine the side pods incorporate the power train, 2 electric motor drives.
    the 2/3 of each wing can be used in a folded wing configuration, have the flap activators "bumps" removed and be smoothed out and have solar panels covering the entire surface.

    the goal is to create a low cost high speed ferries or cargo carriers. it would not be too difficult to use the same cargo containers designed for 747 to be configured for use upside down.

    the nose is intended to have a wave piercing principle resemble to that of the ulstein x bow.

    I have attached a rough model I made, and some photoshopped view to express the idea. and a cut away of 747-100 for reference

    Thank you for any advise or help, specially in help in 3-d development.
     

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  2. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

  3. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    That is just a matter of learning how to use the software (or a more advanced one) and is not deisgn per se.

    You must first consider that the difference in density between air and SW is roughly 800. Thus any loads that are applicable to structural design of an aircraft is significantly different from that of a sea going vessel.

    The current structural arrangement of such planes would not pass the minimum structural requirements using Classification Society rules.

    Then the issue of evacuation and safety…..well, there is no place to safely muster and no location for liferafts etc etc…the list is endless.

    Finally damage stability…there is no min 100% reserve buoyancy for starters…also, in the current arrangement, it’ll sink when taking raking damage, as currently require under the HSC Code.

    This is just a “coffee time” idea I am afraid. Nice pictures, but will not translate into real world usage, just like a school boys fantasy or a scene from a Transformer movie.
     
  4. pansalacia
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    pansalacia Junior Member

    Wow, "a school boys fantasy or a scene from a transformer movie"

    i think you have a limit of understanding of how strong an airframe is.
    to simulate the amount of pressure an airframe goes through during the change of altitude they would fill the entire fuselage with water and pressurize it till it fails, they use water because they can't simulate the amount of air pressure as effectively.

    and i am not talking about a direct drop and go, obvious structural reinforcements, bulk heads, compartments, secondary hull etc etc. will need to be added, that's why i am here. as for safety equipment, the hull can be modified with reinforced openings for such needs.


    i ask that people on the forum to kindly offer advice, adding a mocking comment is not needed.

    your limited vision, arrogant attitude, and lack of knowledge is disappointing to read.
     
  5. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Ok, lets put this into perspective.

    So, how many high-speed passengers ferries of these generic forms have you designed? You must have designed plenty to have a preconceived idea of what is right or wrong to make statements thus:

    So, please enlighten me how many you have designed, to warrant such a riposte?

    And then:

    Who said anything about strong? I'll quote for you again, in case you missed it:

    Please explain to me where I mentioned strong? But surely since you have so much experience in these designs, you would know what the Classification Society rules default to in their minimum requirements and how they are obtained. Otherwise why would you make such a baseless comment about strength when non was mentioned?

    You asked for advice that is what I gave, it is up to you how you take it. Clearly you do not appreciate honesty, only platitudes and pats on the back.

    It seems you are the myopic one. You ask for advice but do not like the bitter pill that one must swallow when a harsh dose of reality deflates the dream bubble. That is for you to resolve with your own ego. Emotions and ego have nothing to do with design and/or engineering and currents rules and regulations that MUST be complied with when designing/building high-speed ferries.

    Your inexperience of what is required by current regulations come across loud and clear with regards to HSC Ferries. It is a shame you did not come onto the forum with an open mind and to answer the replies to your post with a logical mind and in an engineering fashion, rather than an emotive knee jerk reaction.

    You offered nothing to counter and/or dispute any fact that I raised above. Thus, QED, it is a child’s dream and no more.
     
  6. Leo Lazauskas
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    Leo Lazauskas Senior Member

  7. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Here's a guy that took some sort of plane and mounted it on some sort of hull.

    And some guy in Oregon has a 727(?) as a house
     

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  8. pansalacia
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    pansalacia Junior Member

    haha sweet! so there is a precedence!
    thanks!
     
  9. pansalacia
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    pansalacia Junior Member

    it seems obvious to me that you are nothing more then a regulations and technical quoter. regulations and technical requirements are what designers design to, solutions to solve, with creativity and vision.

    luckily there aren't only people like you, otherwise boats such as the ex earthrace or the new planetsolar or boats such as wally boats wouldn't exist.

    And clearly because your knowledge is specific and limited to only HSC Ferries; so to farther avoid your comments i declare not to attempt design to any ferries, but limit to cargo, luxury, experimental, or unique purpose vessels.

    so i thank you for your advice specifically for HSC Ferries, but it's now no longer needed.
     
  10. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    You need to do some research on this website regarding hybrid propulsion. Its just not viable for boats at this stage and wont be for a long time. The only benefit you will get out of it is the "look at me I a trying to be green" factor with drawbacks everywhere else. Cars stop and start, braking regenerates power and even then its not 100% clear how much greener and cheaper a hybrid car really is over the life of the vehicle if it is at all. When a hybrid car is driven on the highway at constant speeds (just like how a boat will operate) there is no benefit for hybrid propulsion.
     
  11. pansalacia
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    pansalacia Junior Member

    sorry i wasn't clear on what i mean by hybrid, and actually used the wrong word
    for one i believe batteries do more harm to produce and recycle (if it gets recycled) then fuel it saves. diesel is just about as efficient as hybrids..

    i guess the wording should be dual or even triple power source.
    sail, solar, diesel generator for backup/fast speed
     
  12. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Other then availability of worn out 747 fuselages, which couldn't be expected to handle the global loads of a boat, why would you want to encumber a boat with this type of structure?
     
  13. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Hi, Ad Hoc how are you? You are right but you are too technical for our junior member.

    There is a very simple reason, very basic, explaining that can't work; the aluminum alloy. Planes use alloys (often the series 7; alu plus zinc and some other metals) that behave in salt water like sugar in hot coffee. Boats use marine alloys of series 5, and a bit (with caution) of 6061.
    The boat-from-plane will corrode totally in a short time, literally dissolved in the water. Add stress corrosion and electrolytic corrosion (the rivets are made with a different alloy...) and the poor thing will fall apart in bits and pieces.

    I won't repeat Ad Hoc observations but put in very plain words the fuselage is not strong enough and the wings are too strong because a plane is engineered for flying, and a boat for floating. Which are totally different things in dissimilar mediums, with very different solutions.

    Thats all the difficulty of hydravions. Ask Beriev's engineers, they will give you some clues.

    Ah, I was forgotting: for your personal information Ad Hoc is doctor in naval engineering (the thesis and all that) and designed very advanced and innovative fast ships with speeds over 40 knots. I'm naval engineer with 30 years experience mainly in warships plus some work on structural design of sailing trimarans, 60 feet ocean racers. So I do think that we have an idea about boats engineering requisites, and we have enough education to understand plane engineering.

    The morphing with the computer was very funny.
     
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  14. messabout
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    messabout Senior Member

    Pansalacia; I do not wish to enter this fray but I will give you a bit of information. You have three respondents with far more than casual knowledge about naval vessels. Ad Hoc is a very much respected naval architect whose academic credentials along with much experience makes him more than qualified to comment. Leo Lazauskas is a world class academic and designer/researcher who enjoys global respect. Par is one of the most practical and experienced boat people on the forum. There are several other highly qualified individuals who participate here and they have impressive credentials.

    Ad hoc is usually a bit more reserved with his comments than the ones exchanged here. Leo has not said much and Par has posed a good, if mildly sarcastic question. None of us are here to belittle anyone. However, when one asks a question or seeks comments, then they must be prepared to consider those comments whether positive or not.
     
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  15. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Hi I.V....doing good thanks. Hope everything is still ok down your neck of the woods..been a while!:(

    Excellent points.

    I decided not to delve too far into this aspect, i wanted to gauge the first replies to simple pointers to ascertain whether the guy is serious and has thought properly about this or is just "coffee time dreaming".

    Funny how many come asking for advice on XXXX project, but become instantly defensive and an instant expert on their own project that they come seeking detailed/technical advice on, when questioned and make endless assumptions about others without facts. So much for an open mind and seeking advice…
     
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